The Pen Addict 373/transcript

The Pen Addict Podcast Transcript
Episode:	373
Title:	Live from the San Francisco Pen Show 2019
Release Date:	August 24th, 2019
Hosts:	Brad Dowdy Myke Hurley
Guests:	Ana Reinert
Additional Information
Official page:	Episode 373
Audio File:	Audio Episode 373
Podcast page:	The Pen Addict 373
Length:	6363 min <br />1.05 h <br /> minutes
Previous Transcript	Next Transcript

Relay FM

Myke Hurley: From RelayFM, this is The Pen Addict, episode 373. Today's episode is brought to you by Squarespace. My name is Myke Hurley. I'm joined by Brad Dowdy. Hi, Brad. Hello, Myke Hurley. How are you? Hello. Hi, Anna Reiner. Hello. How are you? We're all together because we're in San Francisco. Hello, San Francisco.

San Francisco Pen Show

Myke Hurley: Wow.

Myke Hurley: We have been at the San Francisco Pen Show for about six hours.

Myke Hurley: We don't usually record the live shows on the first day.

Myke Hurley: I now know why we don't do that. Because I arrived at about lunchtime because I was a big sleepy boy. Because last night we had a huge RelayFM live show, which I'll talk about in a little bit. Brad, you were here very early, right?

David Sparks: Right. We had to get set up. So I love all of our San Francisco Pen Show promoters who list the open to weekend pass holders at 8 a.m. So we got to get ready. So I left the city this morning for my event last night. About 7. Rolled down here and spent the next couple hours getting set up alone. I'm sorry about that. I'm just kidding. I had David Sparks here, wonderful host on RelayFM, help me out for a couple hours. So you honored me with your presence.

Myke Hurley: But San Francisco is new for me. It's the Pen Show. It's my first San Francisco Pen Show. Wow. It is big. It's very big. Yes, it is. I was saying I reckon you could probably fit all of Atlanta in that main room. Oh, easily. With space, right? Yeah. For sure. It is a very different feeling show. There's actual real daylight, which isn't always a thing at Pen Shows. Every area has windows, which is lovely. It just feels very different to have actual sunlight, which is nice. It's lots of space. And there is literally everything here. Everything. Which is very exciting.

Ana Reinert: Yeah.

David Sparks: Yeah, I think that's why I wanted to get back here. It's been two years since I've been. You've been. Really? Yeah.

Ana Reinert: This is my fourth year in a row.

David Sparks: Yeah. Yeah. So I did those first two, then I skipped two, and now I'm back. Okay. So you definitely have more experience. How is this going for you, just compared to previous years?

Ana Reinert: Well, I went to see your show last night, which is not something I normally do on a Thursday night before the Friday 8 a.m. setup. Wait. You was there last night? Yeah, I was there last night.

Myke Hurley: I had no idea.

Ana Reinert: Yeah.

Myke Hurley: Thank you for coming to the show.

Ana Reinert: You're welcome. It was a lot of fun. I was up in the balcony. The only reason you would have known I was there was the moment Brad said, sailor, I screamed. Okay.

Myke Hurley: Yeah, there was a, we did a family feud. It was family feud was the Relay FM event. And there was a question, which was a question that I created, which was name a type of pen.

David Sparks: And that was the entirety of the question. Yeah. You got strikes, right? No. So luckily, David Smith was on our team and he was up at the bell to answer the first question. Name a type of pen. And I'm like, oh, cool. I've got this. And David on our team goes, ding. And God said, he goes, ballpoint.

David Sparks: I'm like, that's interesting. That's not where my head went. And then if you're familiar with family feud, the board goes, ding, ding, ding. Number two answer, ballpoint. So then I knew number one, thank goodness. I was not the one on the bell because I would have said sailor or retro 51 knowing what we talk about a lot. And then number two, since David answered ballpoint, I knew, okay, this is where we're going. Fountain pen, number one answer. So then we were off to the races. But then by the, I don't know, I think we had one left on the board. No, there were two left on the board and none of us could get it.

Myke Hurley: Nope.

David Sparks: And so we went from generic ballpoint to fountain pen to not being able to get anything. So the remaining answers were specifically Bic, which ballpoint, Bic were both answers. I think they were number two and three was ballpoint, then Bic. And then we had Fisher Space Pen and the Mark 1. So we got to know our audience a little bit better.

Myke Hurley: Yeah. So that was, you can go and check that out now. I'm going to put a link in the show notes, but it's, we've actually posted it in the connected feed. It's episode 257, which was our big fifth anniversary thing that we did. So it was really fun. But, and had some wonderful, wonderful answers. So I say I've been here for a few hours, but I've seen a bunch of things already. Things that I was excited to talk about. Cool. With you all. One of them is the Sailor Cross Concord nib that Thomas Hall has, which was a wild thing to see. So can you explain, Brad, what a Cross Concord nib is?

David Sparks: Not really. Okay. Especially in audio, in the audio version. In the, in the video version, I can do a little hook with my finger and make it point down like a, you know, maybe a little dinosaur or something, but it's basically a...

Ana Reinert: Sam the Eagle. Yeah. Sam the Eagle. Yeah.

David Sparks: Kind of maybe like his nose. So it is a nib that's turned down in the front to a very fine point. And then you can flip the nib over and it gives like a wider brush stroke with a nib. One of the great things that we always talk about when we come to pen shows is get to try other people's pens, right? They bring things for us to check out. We bring things hopefully for you to check out and kind of get your mind blown on. I did not know this was a thing nor that it could happen. And that's kind of what happened with you when you were testing this pen out.

Myke Hurley: And also, um, I know the Ooh La La case fame. Yeah. Had this like nib that did three things. It was wild. Like my limits to, yeah, there was, there was like, you could hold it one way or the other way or like directly straight up. Okay. And it would make different lines. Yeah. It sounds like a zoom nib maybe. No, it was like this custom prototype thing. It's like a whole thing. I'll, I'll, I'll find out more information for the next time. I saw the, uh, 1911, sailor 1911 ringless epinard. So this is the 1911 that has no rings on the cap and like is very different. I am undecided how I feel about it. The color is not what I expected. It is kind of like a, it reminds me of like a military green. Yeah. Which didn't, it didn't look that way in photos. It looked a little brighter. The, the, uh, clip is dark. It's like a dark metal. Yes. But then the nib isn't. Yeah. So that was a miss.

David Sparks: Lithium versus rhodium. Yeah. So it's almost a mismatch. That was a bit, I think that's a bit of a miss.

Pen Color

Myke Hurley: See, I don't, I'm not sure. I think I like the style and I hope they make more of them, but I'm not sure this color is for me. I think this is something I'm going to be picking up all weekend. So I just, I saw it at Dan Smith's table, Nipsmith's table. I looked at it and I also saw the, uh, 1911 Stormy Sea as well. The King of Pen, not the 1911, the King of Pen Stormy Sea. Yeah. Again, I don't think that colors for me, but I bet a lot of people are into it.

David Sparks: It's really good. It's really good. Um, I am in a very good position in the room, getting to see a lot of new vendors and some people that I haven't seen in a long time. And I'm right behind Galen Leather. And I just wanted to say their stuff is awesome. Um, and they're super cool to hang out with. So it's really neat to get to see, talk to Yusuf and like, just hear all the stuff that he's going through and, uh, you know, all the cool things that he's creating. And I'm really happy like that we get to hang out with him all weekend. Yeah. So that's pretty cool. And you can get all that stuff. Like how's that stuff doing at Vaness Pens? Cause it's, that shelf is always just like, I can't see the shelf for the people in front of it.

Ana Reinert: Oh yeah. It's been amazing. And watching people just stand all day and go zoop, zoop, zoop, zoop, zoop with the zippers. And they'll take one case and it's like the five pen case and then the 10 pen case and then the three and then the five and they'll look at different colors and then they'll take two different crazy horse leather and they'll like, this one or this one, this one or this one.

Myke Hurley: We need to talk about that wild little case thing. It's like a tiny little briefcase, like which has these magnets on and you can unfold it. It's like the ultimate pen show kit. Yeah.

David Sparks: So what is that?

Ana Reinert: The new, the new leather. Yeah.

David Sparks: Like the box, not the, not the letter writing box, but the carrying case.

Ana Reinert: That's the one that's just on Galen's table. And I think that's something new that they're still working on. Yeah. So that's not for sale yet.

David Sparks: If y'all haven't seen this yet, you should come check this thing out. It's like the, the mental gymnastics that had to go into creating this kit. It's pretty fantastic.

Ana Reinert: Ryan, Ryan Cruz, I walked by and he literally just like picked it up, folded it up. We put the strap on and he put it on and he goes, Oh yes, I think, yes, this, yes. It was really nice. I think he was about to walk away with it.

David Sparks: Can't stop fidgeting with it.

Myke Hurley: I think he said it was based on a Swiss doctor's kit.

David Sparks: Yeah. And that's what it looks like. Fountain pen size. Like it's not overly large. Like when it's spread out, it's, it's pretty big. It takes up space. But when you kind of pack it all in together, it's, it's not even shoebox size. Yeah.

Ana Reinert: And it closes with magnets on the side.

Myke Hurley: So it's like this cute little leather briefcase for pen stuff. Yeah. I desperately want one.

David Sparks: Yeah. They're pretty cool. It's wonderful. Yeah. I think they're going to do pretty well once those launch. So come by and check them out so you can play with them. They have two display models on the table and I'm just fascinated with them.

Myke Hurley: And I guess listeners at home should just keep their eye on the Galen of a website, hoping that maybe one day they go for sale, right? Yes. Yep. What else have you been looking at?

David Sparks: What'd you bring for us, Anna?

Ana Reinert: Uh, the Kello ring. Yay. Kello ring.

Ana Reinert: Which Daryl was teasing me because of, he was like, what's with the puns? And I'm like, if I can use them, I will.

David Sparks: I mean, it's pen show people where I'm going to go terrible with puns just because it's so fun. Yeah. But I mean, we just, you have to do it, right? You just have to do it.

Ana Reinert: After the Chicago ring, I just couldn't, I couldn't help myself.

Myke Hurley: Yeah. So I look forward to the next version. You're putting yourself into a bit of a situation though.

Ana Reinert: I know. Yeah. I don't know how many more I can come up with, but you know, I'm going to go with it. Well, after last year's, which had the great skyline and every, you know, I was like, what can I do? Like, how do I top myself? So I just, I went punny.

David Sparks: Yeah. And what, the one pin you were showing me today that we'll have to check out more, you and I both is the Euchres pin. Tell us about this thing.

Ana Reinert: Um, so it is a, um, felt tip pen that will take fountain pen ink. So cartridge or converter, um, and it, you can choose nibs, nib sizes between a 0.8 and a 1.4 and they're on the Yaffa table and you can get them in with a plastic body in like white, red, blue, like a teal blue. You were standing there with me. There was a metal one too.

Myke Hurley: There was in a little box. Yes.

Felt Tip Pens

Ana Reinert: And there were some just metal designs, some that had texture and some that were either black or silver. And the plastic, I think we're $12 and then the metal ones, I think we're closer to about 40.

David Sparks: Yeah. I'm 50. Oh, $10.

Ana Reinert: I'm getting hand gestures from Julia.

David Sparks: I'm super interested to see how these play out. Right. Like it's, it's an interesting concept. Let's see how it works. Yeah. And it could be cool.

Ana Reinert: Like I, somebody, um, they were sold out in DC. Um, so I wasn't able to get them there. So that was one of the things I really wanted to get here. Yeah. Cause I had somebody come up to me in DC and was just like, did you see this? This is the coolest thing ever. And I'm like, oh, how did I miss this? This is totally up my alley. Yeah.

David Sparks: So the last couple of things that I saw and like Myke, I just haven't had time to get around, you know, it's just been like a whirlwind day today. I was like, wow, we're really podcasting tonight and that's a few hours and we might want to like write the show or something like that. Put some notes down. And, but like, it's hard when you're in a place like this and seeing so many awesome people and seeing so much awesome stuff laying around. It's hard to just like not stop every two steps. Um, I always love coming to San Francisco because I get to see some of my friends from the Japanese market and Asian market. So Taizo from Yamamoto paper. Y'all should go check out his stuff. He does this thing, um, called, um, uh, paper testing, paper tasting. And he builds these kits of different types of papers, um, different colors and different textures. You got to eat them. Yeah. You got to eat them. They do look tasty.

Ana Reinert: Drink the ink and eat the paper.

David Sparks: Yep. That's right. And so he's done, he has, there must be 20 different kits for you to test out. And so you can figure out whether you like these papers or not and then order that specific paper, but they're really cool kits, um, on that. And then Lisa Van Es, of course, brought me over this little Midori notebook because it's a little pocket grid notebook and it has a two by two. Millimeter. So it's a two millimeter grid. So she knows I like to write tiny. So I got, uh, I got this, but the best part about good is a grid for ants. Yes. Yeah.

Ana Reinert: I told her to throw down the gauntlet and see if Brad could actually write that small. Yeah.

Myke Hurley: I, I can get close. There's people here that can write smaller. Genuinely do not know what this notebook is for. Yeah. Well, that is the smallest grid I've ever seen. I have, I, nobody could write notes in there. You wouldn't be able to read them. I cannot fathom why. I'm glad you asked that.

David Sparks: I'm annoyed by this notebook. No, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. And there's actually a how to use page on. Yeah.

Myke Hurley: Cause you need a magnifying glass cause it's impossible.

David Sparks: Yeah. So it literally says how to use. And the first page is a pen writing on the page. The second page is turn the page when you're done with that page. And the third instruction is to close the notebook when you're done. So.

Japanese Notebook

Myke Hurley: Well, the thing is, this is, it's written in Japanese. So there are the images. It could be saying anything. You don't know. It could be.

David Sparks: I'm confident in my translation skills.

David Sparks: Yeah. It looks pretty good. There is a warning though. There is a warning. There's a warning. We're going to have to check this out. But you don't know what it is. I probably shouldn't eat this.

Myke Hurley: The warning is, no one can write in this notebook.

David Sparks: Yeah. Cause it's impossible.

Myke Hurley: Cause the grid's too small.

David Sparks: Yeah. We'll work on that tomorrow. We'll see how small we can get in this grid. What is it?

Myke Hurley: What is it called?

David Sparks: It's the Midori.

Myke Hurley: Two by two?

David Sparks: Yeah. Pato. P-A-T-T-O. Okay.

Myke Hurley: So I want to make sure it's in the show notes.

Ana Reinert: Which probably translates to really, really tiny.

Myke Hurley: Really small. Just ridiculously small.

David Sparks: Really.

Purchases

David Sparks: So. Yeah. That's kind of all I've gotten to see so far. It's not much. Well, so you say that, right? Did you buy anything? I did not. Really? Okay. I need to think about that. I did not. Okay.

Myke Hurley: Did you buy anything? Who, me? Yeah, you. Yeah.

Myke Hurley: Look. What is it? Do as I say, not what I do? Yes, sir. Right? Like this. It's good. Look. Bung Boxer here, right? Yes. At the show. Yes. I follow their Instagram. They had a San Francisco exclusive pen, which is red and blue. Looks like Spider-Man. Very excited. And the converter has a tiny little, it looked like painting on it, of the Golden Gate Bridge. I saw that pen and I was like, I want that pen. We're all familiar with that feeling, right? I want that pen. And it's a limited edition pen for this show. So I figured I had to get it quickly. If I wanted it, which I did, because I want that pen, I knew it, you know, I wanted to get it. I didn't want to lose it. So I bought that. Very nice. It's right here in front of me. As I went over to the show, Brad, I saw Tokyo International Pen Show. Yes. Seems interesting.

David Sparks: Yeah. We got to give them a shout out. They really started this up last year with several vendors that I'm familiar with and know that put on this show. So we'll have a link in the show notes for all of you that are planning on traveling to Tokyo or are from Tokyo or currently live in Tokyo to check out the Tokyo Pen Show coming up next month. Seems like a... Oh, no. In about a month and a half. October 5th.

Myke Hurley: I don't know, man. It just seems like a good idea to me.

Ana Reinert: Hmm. Kickstarter 2020.

David Sparks: Did you imagine such a thing?

Myke Hurley: Hmm.

Ana Reinert: Yes. Yes, I can.

David Sparks: We've already passed our fifth anniversary.

Ana Reinert: Sixth. I like the sixth.

Myke Hurley: We're being coy because we've been talking about this.

Pen Addict Anniversary

Myke Hurley: 2022, the pen addict is 10 years old. So maybe.

David Sparks: You got anything on your radar?

David Sparks: Bungbox, of course. They have the Sapporo minis. Yeah, me too. Which are the little bitty sailors, which I really love. And they always come in cool, like little, little candy colors, which I really like. There's a blue one, which might already be sold out. That's kind of the one I wanted. A yellow one and like a coral colored one. I will end up with one of those at some point, maybe Sunday, if I get a chance to go out there and there's any left. Otherwise, there's nothing super specific on the radar for me. How about you, Anna? Anna, do you have anything lined up?

Ana Reinert: If at some point I can get away from one or both of the tables that I'm working, I'll try to get over to Straits Pens for their inkstravaganza. What's that? They have all of the inks. All of it? I want all of them.

David Sparks: All of it.

Ana Reinert: Jacqueline tried to offer to go and get ink for me and I'm like, I'm sorry, I can't make a decision.

David Sparks: Do your hands need to be a different color or something?

Myke Hurley: Anna had an ink accident. Anna's hands are as pink as her hair right now. Coincidence. They are very similar. What happened to you?

Ana Reinert: So a customer came up to the table and asked to see what color Organic Studio Unicorn Blood was.

Myke Hurley: Real name. Real name for an ink.

Ana Reinert: Real name for an ink.

Ana Reinert: This is what color.

Myke Hurley: The color is. Look at my hands.

Ana Reinert: This is after I've washed my hands five times. Yeah. Maybe six. Did you drop it? No. I unscrewed the cap.

David Sparks: Oh. Well. Yeah. We did get some close to original photos like right after the catastrophe and it was extremely bad. It was really bad.

Ana Reinert: Did you have some opening it? Yeah. It got. The color got a little around the cap edge and it was just. A lot around the cap edge. Yeah. A lot. It would seem. Yeah.

David Sparks: Yeah. So Anna's looking for more inks to finger paint with. Yeah.

Ana Reinert: Maybe a different color this time. Yeah.

Myke Hurley: Give a little follow up. So we had my wife, Nina, on the show last week. She's sitting right there. And I got lots of great feedback. We both did about the episode. Lots of people here and also by email too. And I got to walk her around the show a little bit today. Yeah. And I got to feel like an expert. That's a rare thing. It is because people come up to us and they're like, oh, I would love it if you'd walk us around the show. And I say, oh, you should get Brad to do that. Because I genuinely, when I walk around, feel like I know a little bit, but Brad knows all of it. So it's kind of a waste for me because people would say, oh, what is this? Like, I don't know. We'll ask Brad. So I figure you may as well be there most of the time. But I thought I could take my own wife around the show. And it was really nice. And we're going to do more of it because she hasn't bought anything yet. Nice. But she's been picking things up, putting things down.

David Sparks: So have you explained the rule of two yet? No. If you pick it up the second time, you're going to buy it.

Myke Hurley: Yeah. Yeah. If you come back, right?

David Sparks: Yeah.

Myke Hurley: Yeah.

David Sparks: If you pick it up the second time, just get out the wallet.

Myke Hurley: See what's now? You've made the decision. Yep. So we have some wonderful guests that we're going to bring up very shortly for our interview for this episode. Because we like to do that when we go to pen shows because we get to have people with us who we can't usually get to talk to. And it's a really lovely environment. But before we do it, I just wanted to very quickly touch on something that we'll be talking more about in the coming weeks, which is Relay FM for St. Jude. So we announced this last night and I'm very excited about it, which is why I want to talk about it now. So St. Jude Children's Research Hospital is an organization that is near and dear to our hearts at Relay FM for many reasons. But nevertheless, our personal connection, it is an incredible place where they are trying their best and doing a wonderful job of making children's lives last longer when they're suffering cancer. They cure things and they provide help and assistance for families that need it and they pay for all of it. And it's an incredible organization and we are very honored that Relay FM is going to be St. Jude's very first podcast partner. So it's a big deal. This is a huge deal. This is massive for us. And so throughout the month of September, but you can start now, you can go to Relay.fm slash St. Jude. There'll be links in the show notes of that and you can donate money. And we're going to be talking much more about this throughout September. We're trying to raise $75,000 last year without the efforts that we're putting in in conjunction with St. Jude. We raised $70,000. So I'm very confident in our audience at Relay FM that we can smash that. And we're going to be doing something extra special, I think, to try and push us over the edge. So myself and Stephen Hackett, who's operating the camera right now, who's my co-founder, September 20th from 4 p.m. 4 to 10 Eastern, we're going to be doing a six-hour podcast-a-thon streamed live on Twitch from St. Jude. We're going to be at the hospital recording there doing who knows what for six hours. But that's going to be our big fundraising push. So again, we're going to be talking about this a bunch more throughout September and sharing some stories about St. Jude. But you should already be wanting to give money. So go to Relay.fm slash St. Jude. They're an incredible organization. We can't wait to see what comes of it. All right. Should we take a break? Take a quick break. We have some awesome guests. All right. Today's episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Make your next move with Squarespace. They let you easily create a website for your next idea or project. They'll give you the ability to register a unique domain name, take advantage of, and customize awards and templates, and so much more. Whether you want to create an online store, a portfolio, or a blog, Brad has two out of the three on Squarespace. Because that's the kind of guy he is. I have three out of the three.

David Sparks: You have a portfolio? Yeah. I have one of those portfolio pages. Do you? Yeah, I do. What you got on that? BradDowdy.com. And it hasn't been updated in like two years, but I do have it.

Myke Hurley: So that's three out of three. Brad has all of them. Yeah. I'm going to go check out your portfolio. Squarespace is an all-in-one platform that will let you build any website or all of the websites if you're BradDowdy. There is nothing to install or patch or worry about. No upgrades needed. They've got you covered and they back it up with award-winning 24-7 customer support. In case you need anything, Squarespace is there for you. So go try it out today. Go to squarespace.com slash penaddict and you can sign up for a free trial. No credit card required to do so. So then when you want to launch your website to the world, you can just sign up one of their plans. It starts at just $12 a month. And when you decide to sign up, use the offer code penaddict and you will get 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain and show your support for this show. Once again, that's squarespace.com slash penaddict and the code penaddict to get 10% off your first purchase. Our thanks to Squarespace for their support of this show and all of RelayFM. Squarespace. Make your next move. Make your next website. You were looking at me funny during that. I mean, you're an attractive man. I don't know what to say.

David Sparks: I thought you were trying to put me off, but no one can put me off. No, no, not at all. Would you like to introduce our guest, Brad? I would love to introduce Hugh and Carol from Canalea Pen Company. Please come and join us.

Myke Hurley: Give a round of applause, everyone. I have been looking forward to this so much since Brad told me that we were going to be doing this. So, I mean, Canalea and the penaddict, we go back a long way now, I feel like. But there is some stuff about Canalea pens that we don't know, and I would be very interested to know. I think first, how did this start? How did the Canalea pen company begin? What made you want to start this wonderful company that you've built?

Hugh: Okay. Well, first, aloha!

Hugh: And thank you. We wanted to share the inspiration that we felt, having been to the Hawaiian Islands and learning about the culture and seeing things with the pen community that we had been a part of and really fell in love with. And we wanted to just bring that in a way that we felt was both creative and provided the same inspiration that we felt for people to use their writing instruments. And really, that's what started it. Yeah.

Myke Hurley: So you say that the pen community you were a part of, in what way? Were you beforehand, before Canalea?

Hugh: So we had been, we've been pen and paper people forever and had been going to the Baltimore and D.C. shows for a number of years, gotten to know a lot of folks and had been customers of a lot of the vendors at the shows. And so we began this journey. If you've ever been antiquing with your wife, Adina, you might want to know. Okay. Well, this is coming. So get ready. So I was antiquing with Carol, who said this was going to be fun. And it was. And there are these vintage fountain pens that don't work for $18. And so I decided that I was going to teach myself how to restore these things to occupy my time while we were antiquing. And so I combined that with our visits to the pen shows and started restoring vintage fountain pens and got good at it. So we had just been interacting with the vendors for a long time. How long ago was that? Were you starting on the pens? Maybe six, seven years ago, something like that. Yeah.

Myke Hurley: And how long has Canalea been around now?

Hugh: This is our fourth year in business.

Myke Hurley: So it wasn't a long time, really?

Hugh: No.

Myke Hurley: No?

Hugh: No. It's been quick.

David Sparks: So I'm sitting here remembering our first interaction. Yes. And honest to goodness, all this prep time I had before knowing that you were going to come on, that didn't cross my mind. But I'm sitting here listening and it was DC, I guess five years ago. We don't know each other. No. At all. And you came up to me, introduced yourself and just said, hey, can I pick your brain about this idea that I have?

Myke Hurley: Yeah.

David Sparks: You didn't have anything to show. Like you didn't have. No. Yeah. I mean, you didn't have the first like image, the first material, anything. And you said, hey, let me pick your brain. And I don't know. I don't know why that just jumped back into my head right now. And I hadn't remembered it before then. But that was kind of an awesome conversation because exactly one year later, Canalea was at the DC pin show with the full lineup of pins. And that was a pretty cool thing to see from the very beginning.

Hugh: I remember how scared I was when you walked in and saw the table. I mean, I thought, okay, well, we're here. Let's see if we can, you know, do this right. And it was a whole year in very detailed planning and a lot of work with paper and pencil, trying to figure out what we wanted our inspirational designs to be. And would it resonate with the community, our Ohana family in Hawaiian? And you're right, we didn't know each other. And I recognized you for what you were building. And I thought, well, I want to tip you off a little bit so that at least when I do this, you'll say something like, oh, this is what you were talking about.

David Sparks: So let me tell you a little something about Hugh and Carol. From that first day that I met Hugh until the day that he launched, and then every subsequent release they have ever had, I've never gotten a sneak preview. So they keep it very close to the vest. Like, it's no joke. They take this seriously. It's awesome. I love it.

Hugh: I think it's great. It's very cool. We just wanted to make sure that when we do it, it feels right for us. And that's why, and we thank you both and everybody in the community. We Ohana in Hawaiian is family. And we regard everybody in the community as our Ohana. And this thing that we do and the way we do it, it's very much thought through as if we were on the receiving end of it. And we wanted to make sure that from launching something new to the inspirational photographs that we've taken and that inspire our pens, it feels right to us as if we were going to be the person spending hard-earned money to acquire that, that piece of art. It has to feel right as if it were our own money buying it. And when it does, that's when we release it, but not before. And that's why sometimes, and we'll talk about the new Eolani in a little bit, that was a little more than 11 months in the works. And you're right. You didn't know anything about it.

Myke Hurley: So I want to talk about that year then. So I'll ask you, Carol, from having these conversations and deciding it was going to happen, how on earth did you in one year manage to pull off what you did? Because the Canalea launched with multiple pens, right? In multiple colors, multiple styles.

Carol: How did you do that? You know, we really had been planning for several years. You know, a lot of late night talks and long rides in the car somewhere and you start dreaming and planning and then start putting all the puzzle pieces together. And it really, it takes a lot longer than you think. And so when you saw Hugh, we were probably furiously treading water underneath trying to get all of our things to happen. And, you know, when it's up to you, all the things that are up to you, you can make happen when you want. But when you depend on suppliers or other artisans who make things that all go into one package, that's a lot of coordination.

David Sparks: It was one of the most fully formed launches I've ever seen in my life. It doesn't happen. It was very abnormal. And I mean that in the most positive way. It does not happen that way. And it was just amazing to see.

Myke Hurley: How many pens were in the original lineup?

Carol: I think it was eight or nine. How?

Carol: We're very ambitious.

Myke Hurley: Why not do like one or two? Like why did you decide to have such a selection?

Carol: We really wanted, however abbreviated it ended up to be, a color palette out there that reflected certain aspects of Hawaii. You know, try to get a couple islands in there, some water, some land, some sky. So that's why we had so many ideas. So, yeah.

Ana Reinert: So, Carol, I know that Hugh was very interested in pens. Were you as interested in fountain pens when this idea came about? No.

Hugh: If you've ever been to the front desk at a hotel, that's where Carol got her.

Carol: No, that's not true. I proudly used really nice ballpoints.

Hugh: That's true.

Carol: And I was, in fact, I'm a little secret. I'm still kind of afraid of fountain pens a little bit. Hugh fills them for me still.

David Sparks: That's understandable. Yeah. Yeah. That's my goal this year to do it myself. Just look at Ana's hands. I know. I know.

Ana Reinert: It doesn't hurt. And once I take a good hot shower, my hands will come right up.

David Sparks: It comes right up.

Myke Hurley: So one of the great things about Canaleo, especially when you come to a pen show, as Brad mentioned, it's like a thing. Like your stand is very involved. It's very detailed. And I want to come back in a little bit to talking about the very strong marketing that you do and where that comes from. But before that is the pens themselves. And Canaleo pens are known for the materials, the way they look. And they're so unique. And we previously interviewed Jonathan Brooks, who I know has worked on the original lineup and has worked on many pens a year. Yes. How important are those materials to the success of your product?

Hugh: It's integral, Myke. And to say that it's not huge would be a mistake. But as you've acknowledged and our ohana have acknowledged when they come to our table and they go to our website, when they visit our Instagram, everything that Carol does outward facingly, social media, the web store, and working with our graphic designer and brand manager, Emerald Dong, who has been an amazing resource for us and friend, it's our brand that stands. And as much as we, you know, our handmade black walnut keepsake box, the belly band with the wildflower seeds, the way Carol layers the experience of unboxing the pen to the materials that Jonathan and other artisans help us make, the inspirational photographs that they're all based on. These are the things that make Canalea what it is. It is a very different experience.

Myke Hurley: I have spent the similar money on pens and more than, right, at pen shows and other places. But with your pen, I get like a big box and it's all, you know, like it's a, I walk away feeling like, yeah, I got a luxury experience out of this. And I think that it really does add to it, especially in the idea of becoming a repeat customer, which I am now. Yes, you are.

Carol: Well, and, you know, I was just going to add, we, when you were talking about the materials, how important are they? They're, I think, yeah, they're really critical because through the materials, we convey the meaning of the pen. And like the kaha kai means beach. But in the material, you see the different shadings of the water and you see the sand moving in the water, which is crazy. I still don't know how we pulled that off. But yeah, so that's, that's what it is.

David Sparks: Yeah, and I think that like you tell a story with each pen, right? And then when someone makes that purchase, I can now share the story of this pen. Like I've learned about it from, from you. I'm holding up the Hanuma Bay pen, which is my personal favorite Canalea pen. And, and you just can't stop staring at it and you want other people to see it. So you can tell them the story of Canalea and like how this happens, the people behind it.

David Sparks: Like, it's kind of like this little bit of magic in your hand. It's just so cool. So, yeah, I don't know what to say. It's like, it's, it's got me like, you know, I'm at a loss for words.

Myke Hurley: No, we're with you, man. But I have a tricky question. Does this make it hard for you to launch new products now?

Myke Hurley: Because people expect big things now from you.

Carol: And we expect it of ourselves too. I mean.

Myke Hurley: That's well said.

Carol: Yeah.

Myke Hurley: Because like when you had the original lineup, you could afford to have some that maybe weren't as good as some of the others. Because you had a selection. But now you release one, maybe a year to the line. And so every year, if that is what you're going for. Right. You have to have something that is worthy of standing with the rest of the most successful pens. Yes. That must be a big pressure.

Hugh: Well, for everyone that you see, there's three to six or seven that were almost launched. And they're not. Because we have to feel that that's the one that our Ohana will be inspired by as much as we are. You're absolutely right. When we launched in 2016, we had that many different designs, inspirational designs on the table. We still have every one of those available. And these are the things that whether we sell, you know, two gecko a year or, you know, dozens of Hanama Bay and Kahakai a year. That doesn't matter to us because it's the fact that somebody came up to the table and with one hand took a pen off the table and with the other hand examined six or seven different pens. And then handed this one to Carol with tears in their eyes. This has happened many times and said, this takes me back to when I was there with myself, my husband, my father, something personal. And they say, this speaks to me. And it doesn't matter to us if we, you know, sell one or two a year of that, we'll always have it. And that's the thing that when it touches somebody and they can tell the story of what that pen brings them back to, then we know that we've done something no ka'oi, good, the best. And that touches them and then that aloha comes back to us. That is what it's all about for us. That's our story.

Aolani Pen

Myke Hurley: So let's talk about the Aolani, which is the most recent pen. Yes. Who made it? Who made the body, the material? Where did it come from? Commercial break time?

Hugh: I'm sure there's a sponsor that we need to know. You want to talk? So first, may I say, we want to thank Jonathan Brooks for taking us from zero to A. And without having found Jonathan and spoken with him on the phone and said, dude, I got an idea. Have you ever thought about this kind of... I said, well, I went back in this website, this forum, and I looked at every single blank you've ever posted. I know that you have the skill. I know that you have the talent. And here we are today.

Hugh: Jonathan has gotten us to be able to take our inspiration, and he executes that at our direction. It's our requirements, our specifications. Yeah, these are project kind of things that we talk with him about. And he will continue to supply us with...

Myke Hurley: Yeah, because he's still making the original set, I would assume. Yes.

Hugh: Because they're Jonathan Brooks pens, right?

Myke Hurley: Absolutely. Like, you can see it. Like, that's his skill. And if you want to continue making them to the quality, then you have to continue with him doing it.

Hugh: And so we become personal friends. We do this work together. And we're growing our inspiration through his hands and his heart as we do our hands and our heart.

Myke Hurley: But my assumption here is that over the time that you've been working with Jonathan, he has also become a very, very busy individual. Hugely. Yes. So I would assume that that became a bottleneck for you? No. Okay.

Hugh: Actually, quite opposite.

Hugh: The transition to bringing on a new second supplier is just a basic business decision. Because after analyzing our website statistics, our Google Analytics, the other social media stats, we realized that our Ohana like what we're doing and they want more. And so bringing on another source of supply is just a basic good business decision for us at this size and what we're doing.

Myke Hurley: So the plan is multiple concurrent suppliers?

Hugh: Correct.

Myke Hurley: Right. Okay.

Hugh: And Eilani is made by another individual with whom we are under nondisclosure. Signed, documented, cannot discuss. And so we thank everybody for respecting that. But I will say that we will continue to have our inspirational designs created by artisans that can bring through the material what we felt standing in front of that place, looking at that thing, and make sure that there's no departure from that sensation in somebody's heart when they see something that was where we were that day looking at that. So we will continue with Jonathan very much so. In fact, we have many more. When we called him and told him about the new supplier, I said, quote, unquote, buckle up, buttercup, because we got lots more to do together. And so he's very much Ohana to us in lots of ways.

Myke Hurley: Because I feel like I'm going to I have to ask why the nondisclosure? That was not our decision. Okay. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Right. It's the other way around. Right. All right. You are under the nondisclosure. We are under nondisclosure. Yeah. Okay. Cool. That makes sense. I am me and Brad have had this conversation many times incredibly intrigued because the level of skill shown in this pen is incredibly high. So I cannot work out who it is. And I've tried.

Myke Hurley: But really, like, I just assumed Jonathan made it because it is of that caliber. Right. And he is of the best. So it means there is another of the best out there. And I don't know who it is. Do you know who it is, Anna? Nobody knows. It will be a secret. But it is an incredible pen.

Ana Reinert: I would be under nondisclosure. That's true. That's very true.

David Sparks: Sure.

Ana Reinert: I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you.

David Sparks: I want to go on, Brad. No, I was just going to ask. So circling back to the Aolani, how has that launch gone for y'all in relation to the rest of the product lineup? What's the feedback been like? Because it was such an important launch. When you're putting all your efforts into one to two releases per year, you have to deliver. So that's a huge pressure. So how have the results been?

Carol: The results have been great. Fabulous feedback from new Ohana as well as folks that have purchased previous pens, which has been very exciting. And some of the comments have been, we're so glad that you added something in this color palette. You know, a purple. Yay. That was very good. And it's kind of fun for us because people share their suggestions with us. Oh, we'd love to see something in, you know, how about this? We had a couple suggestions today. And that's nice for us because we know what you all are thinking and we think that's great when you share that.

David Sparks: So like if this shirt was like from Hawaii somewhere, like would that be the inspiration? Is this your next inspiration? No, we can't. No, we can't do that one. You sure? You don't. It'll save you a trip. Just take a picture.

Ana Reinert: That's right. Inspiration.

David Sparks: Yeah. Okay.

Ana Reinert: Never make a pen that looks like that shirt.

David Sparks: I would agree with that wholeheartedly. I like it, Brad. Don't worry. I like it.

Unique Pens

Myke Hurley: So I've mentioned this before when talking about your pens that due to the way that they are made, every single pen within a line is different. No two look the same. And this isn't no two styles. This is like no two individual pens that come from you look the same. What is your feeling about selling online versus selling at pen shows in relation to this?

Carol: You know, we love to come to pen shows because whether our Ohana want to purchase something or not, just coming up to the tables and having a chance to chat with us, pick up the pen, see what they feel like in their hand, see how they look under the light. That's a crucial part. We do have a lot of folks that order with us because they can't get to a show. So they send us a few photos of what they've seen on our Instagram or whatever that they like. And it might be someone who's already purchased a pen at a show and they go, oh, okay, now I see everything. I feel pretty good about this, that I'm going to get something great when I order it.

Myke Hurley: Yeah, because I've done both, right? Like I've bought pens in person and I've bought pens from you that you sent to me, right? It's because it's like, oh, this, I know it's fantastic every time. But like I knew it was interesting for me when I first bought, when I bought my first pen, it's like, oh, I know what one I want. And I bought a completely different style, right? Like the Maya Makaya was the first one that I bought. I don't remember which pen I wanted to get first, but it wasn't that one.

Carol: The Kaha Kai, I think.

Myke Hurley: And I looked at them and I was like, this is amazing because they all look so unique in that way.

Hugh: There's a couple inspirational things that, if I may, I would add to what you're asking about because it's what we felt. So inside my shop, the wall is covered with emails and Instagram post printouts of people who have written back and said, okay, the pictures on the website were phenomenal, but dude, this pen is more than I could possibly imagine it's going to be. And the surprise of receiving it, knowing that every sunset is a sunset, but every sunset is unique. Every wave crashing on the beach is a wave crashing on the beach, but the way it swirls the sand and the water together is unique. Like, that's part of our basic inspiration is it's the same, but it's unique. And when people order online and they receive it and they're just, I mean, they're blown away. And that touches us deeply that we have through the interwebs, you know, that we've been able to touch them in that way.

Myke Hurley: Is it difficult to photograph your pens for the website?

Carol: It is. Yeah. Because you just, it's hard to get enough light on them to get all the sparkle and the depth. And, you know, kind of when you guys come up to the table and you hold the pen under the light and the light shines through it or, you know, you just can't get that.

Myke Hurley: It needs movement a lot of the time, right? Yes. Which is a tricky thing. Yeah.

Carol: And the, you know, they're shiny. So, yeah, they are tricky. But, you know.

Myke Hurley: I know you were, we were talking today and you had a question you wanted to ask.

Ana Reinert: One of the questions I wanted to ask was when was the first time you guys went to Hawaii?

Carol: We went together in 1985 because we.

Hugh: Yeah, tell it. Do it. Let it out. Let it out. This is, do it.

Carol: Hugh worked at a company. This is, so we're both from, originally from Chicago. So, this, Hugh, yeah. So, Hugh had been working at an electronics company for a few months and then I started there. And we met. And, of course, you know, flirted around. And back in the 80s, you know, you were not supposed to date anybody in your office. None of that stuff. And we thought nobody knew that we liked each other. And we would get together and go to the movies like really far and a far suburb from our house. And, um.

Hugh: So, I said, let's go to Maui for a week.

Carol: Yeah.

Hugh: Yeah, you did. Wow. And.

Carol: I said I was going to California. Yeah.

Hugh: Same days. Until we came back with the same tan from the same week away. Yeah. And then we were still naive and thought nobody knew until they all came up to us and said, yeah. Right, yeah. So, that was the first time.

Ana Reinert: Yep. That's an even better story than I was expecting. Way, way better. On anniversary or. Right, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Honeymoon, something like that. But, no, it was actually like a really good date. Yes.

Myke Hurley: Yeah. Yeah. It's a very good date.

Haleakala Sunset

Carol: We did see something really great on our trip, though. We went, we went to, obviously, you said Maui, up to Haleakala. At sunset. And the sun's going down and a full moon is coming up opposite. It was surreal. Literally. And the Milky Way up above. It was just.

Hugh: If you turned your head 180 degrees. Yeah. Fast enough, you could literally tell that it was absolutely just, they were both moving in unison. It was nearly a Zen-like experience. And that's when we both kind of realized there's something here. And so we've been back 15 times in the last 30 some years. And so, yeah, that's what we felt that night when we were there. It's amazing. It's amazing. It's amazing. And it really gets cold in about 12 minutes. It really does.

Myke Hurley: I'm interested. What is the long-term goal for Canale? And my understanding is that this is, for both of you, still a part-time gig? Yeah.

Carol: It's like a second full-time job, really, now. That's a much better way to describe it. Yeah, I can relate to that. Yes. Because we go to work during the day and we come home and change and eat and go, okay.

Hugh: We eat?

Carol: We do. Quickly.

Hugh: No.

Ana Reinert: Apparently, you didn't get the note about dinner. No. No. No.

Hugh: No, it's a passion for us. And so it isn't like work. It's like the, it's a, I tell Carol, it's my, the shop is like a time machine. I'll go down there at, you know, between 5 and 6, 6.30 and she'll say it's 10.30. What are you doing? It's like, no, it's got to be only about 8.15. But the time goes by. And it's, and Carol's upstairs in her office doing, you know, logistics and website and social media things and ordering and, and, you know, it's, it's not something that is unlike passion. It just drives us without, until we just can't, now we got to go to bed. That's it.

Pen Making Process

Myke Hurley: I think it's actually worth pointing out, like, because I've, we've mentioned your suppliers, but they're just supplying the material, right? Right. We make everything. You're making the pens. Yeah. Oh, yes. I just wanted to clear that up because I don't, I didn't want to confuse people about that. So like when you say you're in the shop, Hugh, that's you making them, right?

Hugh: Starting with an acrylic rod. Yep. And doing what she tells me to do. And how many times? Yeah. That's it. Good answer. But. Yeah. No, that's it.

Ana Reinert: All three of us also having some sort of business also means suppliers can be mailing envelopes, labels, all the other stuff. Printing ink. What else could you possibly need in your office? I'm sure you think of a million things. Yeah. Bubble wrap.

Myke Hurley: Do you have a desire to make products that are not fountain pens or like pens, right? Like I know that you also have a line of ball, like they can take ball points as well. Have you ever thought about what it would be like? And we were talking about this earlier, right? Yeah. Like ink, paper, that kind of thing. Hmm.

Carol: I think every once in a while we've tossed around an idea of, you know, some coordinating inks or something.

Carol: I think, yeah. I don't know. You know, we, on the long car rides, late evening chats, we do kind of think, try to think outside the box. But right now, we just want to do this thing really well. Yeah.

Myke Hurley: Because I guess that would, both of those types of products would require complete outsourcing, right? Yes. Because I can't imagine here you're going to be stirring ink in the basement. Hand-binding books. Not in this lifetime. Right. No.

Ana Reinert: Right. But we know lots of people who could get involved in this. Exactly.

Hugh: The thing that is Conalea is us. Mm-hmm. And that's our brand. And when we come through social media or we come through our web store or we come through at our tables at the show and we interact with our Ohana, we want it to be us. Which means, no, do we make the box, the wooden key? No, this is handmade for us. Mm-hmm. But we make the pen. Mm-hmm. And so if it means having somebody else make an entire product for us that is embossed with a Conalea logo, that's really not – I'll never say never. But if we were to do that, it would have to be done really, really the right way. Mm-hmm. So that we come through and it's inspiring to us and then our Ohana. Right now – and I couldn't agree with you more – it's we want to do what we're doing the absolute best, most inspirational way we can and maintain that quality and that craftsmanship and protect the brand so that everybody always knows that's a Conalea pen from Hugh and Carol.

Myke Hurley: So the level at which you both work and talk about your business is a legitimate inspiration to me. Absolutely. Like – Mahalo. Thank you. You think of things and work at a level which is so much more than is needed, but what is the result of that makes sense for how much work you put into it. Thank you, man. And I will say as well, like, Hugh and Carol are probably the nicest people I know. Every time we ever talk about Conalea pen, we get these beautiful emails from Hugh or Carol, and it is wonderful to know you both.

Hugh: Thank you. And we feel that way about you and our Ohana here listening and watching online and around the world. You inspire us. And I've told you both this story where I'll be listening to the podcast on my way to work in the morning or on the way home, and I'll hear you say something about Conalea, and I'm literally hooting out loud, banging on the steering wheel, and I look at the side. I was like, oh, yeah, sorry. I think there was one time where you told me you had to pull over because you were crying. Yes. Yeah. It touched – yes. I had to pull over into a parking lot because I got choked up with what you were – but that's what this community is about. We're all touching each other in these personal ways because we have an affinity for this thing called writing instruments and how it makes us feel when we can express our most personal and inspirational and heartfelt thoughts through pen and ink and paper and preserve it in a journal that we protect. That's not golfing. You know, that's personal.

Carol: And then getting together with all of our friends afterwards and what did you get? What did you get? Right. And sharing all of that. It's just so much fun.

Myke Hurley: Yeah. If you want to see any of these wonderful pens and you're not at a pen show, you should go to canaleapanko.com, right? Yeah. That's the best place. And social media – what are the social media accounts, Carol?

Carol: Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Myke Hurley: And is it canaleapanko and all of them? It is. Same. Wonderful. I would like to thank you both very much for taking the time to talk with us today. This has been wonderful. And if everybody could please give it up for Hugh and Carol. Thank you.

Ana Reinert: Thank you.

Carol: Aloha.

Myke Hurley: Do you think they left me a pen in here? No, that's the one I'm returning. Oh, man. They sent me two. I bought one. That's right. That's the one to go back. So I think that about does it for this episode, right?

David Sparks: Yeah. I think that's a wrap. San Francisco is awesome. This is something we kind of put together on the fly. And to get the reception that we've had for coming here, putting this on, y'all putting up with our nonsense, this has been really great. Like, this show, I love this show. So I want this to be, like, permanently on my calendar every year. It's just such a...

David Sparks: This is the pen show that all other pen shows should look up to as far as the way they do things right.

Ana Reinert: Isn't this a fun show?

Myke Hurley: It is the fun pen show. If you moved to San Francisco, then San Francisco could be the pen addict's home show every year instead of Atlanta. That's just, like, a thought for you. Can you do that? I mean, that's a different level of Relay FM membership.

Myke Hurley: Yeah, we're top tier at that point. That's a different level.

Ana Reinert: Yeah, that monthly subscription would have to go up a little bit.

Myke Hurley: We are here for one reason, though. And only because of one reason. And that is because of our wonderful Kickstarter backers who made this whole thing possible. So I would like to extend my most heartfelt thanks to them for everybody that backed the campaign. And they should all be... Everyone's in the midst of receiving their products except me. I asked Brad to bring mine to the San Francisco pen show and he didn't. Nope. So now it has to be mailed to me at home.

Ana Reinert: You know who didn't get their Kickstarter backers? We didn't.

Myke Hurley: Yeah, we haven't got them. It's true. I don't think you ever sent me last... It doesn't matter. Brad never sends me anything. I'll never get it. It's fine.

Ana Reinert: Yeah, I also didn't get the code for the video from last year.

Myke Hurley: I can send you that. You don't do anything, do you? I do it for them. Oh, man.

Ana Reinert: It's all for you guys. We never.

Myke Hurley: But thank you so much to everybody that has ever backed one of our campaigns and who has this year as well. We should also thank Stephen Hackett, who's mailing the video himself this year. Thank you, Stephen. Thank you, Stephen. Thank you, Stephen.

Myke Hurley: Just behind the camera.

Myke Hurley: And we should always thank our third host, the wonderful Anna Reiner. Anna, thank you for joining us, as you always do.

Myke Hurley: I guess that's about it, right?

David Sparks: Yeah, and I want to thank the San Francisco Pinshow promoters. Todd was going to sneak in here. Maybe. I'm not sure if he did or not. I can't quite see behind the column. But he did so much for us in allowing us to do this. Giving us this space. Making sure we had the setup right. I cannot thank him enough.

Myke Hurley: There's a key thing here. This is the first time we've ever recorded a live show from a pen show that was in Atlanta. Yeah. So that is a clue to how nice they have been to us and how difficult it can be sometimes. Yeah. Check it out. We'll ever get that DC live show.

David Sparks: I don't even ask. Like, that's a non-starter. Like, I won't even go there. So Todd, Ricky, the entire team has been great. And Todd wanted me to mention, and I love this fact, and I didn't realize it. He's on the board of the Pen Collectors of America. So y'all come check out what they do. There's some information up here. We have the Penant Magazine that releases, I want to say, every quarter? Is this monthly? Yeah, it's every quarter. So they send that out. That's a good name. Yeah, they do great research articles, really great information, and you can join them. And there's some information up here for y'all to check out and a sample of the Penant Magazine. So thanks, Todd. Thanks, San Francisco Pen Show crew, for being phenomenal to work with. They did not have to do this for us. And the first time I asked them, they were like, yes, what do you need? And I just can't thank them enough.

Myke Hurley: And we're not 100% sure on this, but I'm pretty sure. I think this might be our largest ever audience.

David Sparks: Yeah, I think by headcount, we were over 100, I think, in here tonight. So that's pretty cool.

Ana Reinert: And it's actually not as hot in here as it usually is by the time we're finished.

Myke Hurley: So that's good news. No one's going to pass out during the raffle, which is great. I can't wait. It usually happens. You can catch show notes for this episode at relay.fm slash penaddict slash 373. Thanks to Squarespace for the support. Until then, say goodbye, everybody.

David Sparks: Goodbye. Bye, everybody. Bye, everybody. Bye, everybody. &