The Pen Addict 234/transcript

The Pen Addict Podcast Transcript
Episode:	234
Title:	Temperamental Little Beast
Release Date:	December 7th, 2016
Hosts:	Brad Dowdy Myke Hurley
Guests:	Mike Matteson
Additional Information
Official page:	Episode 234
Audio File:	Audio Episode 234
Podcast page:	The Pen Addict 234
Length:	7878 min <br />1.3 h <br /> minutes
Previous Transcript	Next Transcript

Myke Hurley: From RelayFM, this is The Pen Addict, episode 234. Yes, kids, that's 234 today. And this show is brought to you by the Pen Chalet, Capto from Global Delight, and for Cardigan, my name is Myke Hurley, and I'm joined by Mr. Brad Dowdy. How are you, Brad Dowdy?

Brad Dowdy: Good, sir. Are you surviving these days and weeks that go by, getting ready for this house?

Myke Hurley: So the desk is empty now. All my pens are packed away. I have one Retro 51 and one notepad that I've got with me. Next week, I am moving. And unfortunately, I am moving on Wednesday, so I can't be on the show next week. But you've lined up one heck of a guest for next week, but we'll talk about that later on. But we do have a guest today as well.

Guest Introduction

Brad Dowdy: We do have a guest today. Everyone say hello to Mr. Ink Dependence, Myke Madison. How are you, Myke?

Myke Hurley: Hey, I'm doing really well, guys. I'm really good, Brad. Thanks for asking.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, this is going to be an issue throughout the show with all the mics on their mics. We're going to...

Myke Hurley: I think you've just got to go for surname style. You're just going to go surname style.

Brad Dowdy: Myke will be Myke and you will be Hurley. That's where I'm going to go with it.

Myke Hurley: I can live with that.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, so I can live with that. All right, Coach Brad.

Ethics Discussion

Brad Dowdy: Right? Someone's got to lay down the law. And Myke, I'm really excited to have you on this episode because we're not just going to talk about blogging and pen stuff. We're going to talk about some, you know, philosophy, some ethics, because you are actually a philosophy teacher. Is that correct?

Mike Matteson: Yeah, I've been an ethics instructor for, I don't know, 10 or 12 years. I don't know, something like that. Yeah.

Brad Dowdy: Cool. Yeah, so we're going to talk about some of those, how that relates, you know, to the pen industry, to the pen blogging business, to the videos and all that stuff that we do. So this is going to be an awesome conversation. Plus, you're like an ink professional. So we're going to have like two completely different conversations. I'm going to like pick your brain about ink and then we're going to get into some other cool stuff. So if you allow me a second, Myke, I have a bone to pick with Mr. Hurley. Is that okay?

Mike Matteson: Yeah, yeah. Pick that bone.

Brad Dowdy: So, Michael, I've listened to another show of yours called Cortex and it has come to my attention that your new abode is being nicknamed the Cortex Cottage.

Myke Hurley: That's correct, yes.

Brad Dowdy: I have a little bit of an issue with that, seeing as who has been with you longer, you know, throughout all your podcast adventures.

Myke Hurley: It's definitely you, Brad. It's definitely you.

Brad Dowdy: Than me. And I didn't even warrant consideration for Pen Addict Palace. Okay. Anything like this. So, I mean...

Myke Hurley: What about the pen pad? Can we go with the pen pad?

Brad Dowdy: We could go with the pen pad. You know, and I think, you know, you could have like the Cortex Kitchen. Like you could sponsor different rooms of the house. I think the overall house should go to the person that's been with you the longest. Okay. Through all your ups and downs. So, the pen pad, you know, the Cortex Kitchen, you know, the Bonanza Bathroom, things like that. So, what are your thoughts on this?

Myke Hurley: I have to concur and just offer my most humble apologies. You know, I will bow down to you, Mr. Dowdy. And for Hiver Thorfe, it shall be known as the Pen Palace when I'm talking to you.

Brad Dowdy: I'll take it up with Gray.

Myke Hurley: There is a reason that the Cortex Cottage name is there. I think you're just going to have to work out for yourself what that might be. Okay.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. I can figure that out without much thought.

Brad Dowdy: So, let's get into other British things. Our good friend Tessa Sowery has opened up her online shop that we talked to her in episode 206 of the Pen Addict Podcast. And we pinned her down. She said, hey, back in January, you know, she mentioned, like, in her upcoming year, she's like, she wants to open a stationery store. And she did it. So, we want to send everyone the link to that, right?

Myke Hurley: We most certainly do. I was very excited to see this. And I bought something immediately.

Brad Dowdy: So, you can go to the-stationer.co.uk.

Myke Hurley: So, the-stationer.co.uk. You can go there and you can peruse the lovely wares that Tessa has curated together, I think is probably a good way to put it. Yes. And I found something there that I was immediately excited about, which was a label maker. A really cool label maker that I bought. And it comes with two different wheels. And one of them is like a funky little, like a funky font. Like, it's not like the traditional label maker font, you know?

Brad Dowdy: So, is this a- this is not a digital label maker, I'm assuming. It's an analog, like, push the button down, stamp the letter into the tape.

Myke Hurley: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I bought that and it arrived and it was- it came in a regular envelope, right? But I opened it up and there was, like, this beautifully wrapped with string, like, envelope and a little card, like a little thank you card. Tessa- Tessa's got it down. She knows what she's doing. Like, you know, like, you know how when you buy something from CW Pencils, it's like this whole thing, you know? Like, this is like what Tessa's saying. And, I mean, you can go- if you go to the Twitter account, which is at the underscore stationer underscore, I'll put that in the show notes as well, you can see some pictures of some of the stuff that Tessa's been sending out. Yeah, she's- she's taking this- she's taking this serious.

Brad Dowdy: Yes, so right now she's just shipping to the UK, but she plans on expanding that as she grows the business. And congratulations, Tessa. Tessa, I'm super, super happy for you. This is an exciting development. I love to see it.

Myke Hurley: Yep, you can see if you want to. I posted a picture of the first thing that I printed on my label maker.

Brad Dowdy: I did see that. So, a little hashtag Myke was right. Yep. Right on to- with all your other stickers. Um, Myke Madison, are you a sticker guy? Are you a sticker my stuff guy?

Mike Matteson: Uh, no. But, uh, that's just because I don't have a label maker. I keep meaning to get one. And I keep going, oh, no, this one's cool, but it costs, I don't know, 60 or 100 bucks. I'm like, I don't know, do I need to know what's in a thing? Because I'm going to label everything. I'll label lamps lamp. It's going to be nuts if I get one.

Brad Dowdy: But- I'm with you there. Yeah. But, uh, that's tempting. Just to, you know, I feel like I have to battle Hurley when he does something like that. I'm like, oh, God. Except I get these emails that say, you know, Myke actually was right. And I'm like, you guys are killing me.

Myke Hurley: It's true, though. I mean, the hashtag exists for real reasons, you know? I have been, and was, and will continue to be right about things. It's a true statement.

Brad Dowdy: You know, luckily for you, you are up in, like, the 95th percentile of rightness, you know?

Myke Hurley: There was something I was wrong about, though. And I'm willing to admit that. Mm-hmm. Last week, when we were talking about those SpaceX notebooks, and I kind of questioned, I called into question the potential legality of using the SpaceX posters for those notebooks. Right. Well, it turns out that they were published under a Creative Commons Zero license, which basically means people can do whatever they want with them, including put them on notebooks and sell them. Wow. So, I apologize to the back pocket people for that.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, so it's essentially the unlicensed license means you can actually make money off of these things, right? Usually, it's, okay, you can use my stuff, give me credit, you can't profit off of it, blah, blah, blah, blah. This is the zero license.

Myke Hurley: This is the, like, this is free. Free reign. Yeah. Go crazy. This is public domain.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, so we talked about that, and Ian from Pen, Papers, Pencils sent me a link. He said, it's funny you guys are talking about that. I have a review coming this week, and it just dropped this morning. So, I haven't had a chance to read it, but I saw it this morning, so I linked it in the show notes. Y'all can go check that out, see how these notebooks are. I haven't read it yet, though.

Myke Hurley: I am just going to say, though, like, I want to close this thread off without trying to be mean, but, like, these notebooks are relatively expensive for artwork the company didn't create. Like, there's 12 pounds for a three-pack, which is, that's expensive, right? Like, you know, you kind of, you're in field notes territory at that point, right? Like, I can buy a three-pack of field notes for cheaper because they're 12 bucks, right? And I don't know. Like, I know that this stuff isn't easy to do, but it's like, the artwork and the design is surely one of the things that actually costs quite a bit of money, and this doesn't do that. So, I don't know. I don't know. There's something weird to me. It's like taking this Creative Commons stuff and then just, I know you can legally do it, but I don't know. There's just something about it which is strange to me, I've got to say.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. This is a good question for Myke. What's the correct ethical thing to do here, Myke? Look, I am not a lawyer.

Mike Matteson: But, I mean, it seems that if a company or a group puts something out as a free license like that, then they want other people to use it. It could probably only be good for SpaceX as long as they're, you know, using it for notebooks and not using it for, I don't know, something terrible. I'm not sure.

Brad Dowdy: Right.

Mike Matteson: SpaceX bullets. I don't know what they would use it for.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. Yeah. So, it's interesting.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, I don't think the price is egregious at all, but I'm also, you know, not totally into this work. I think they look cool. It's not something I'd ever purchase, but just because I have so much paper with it, they look pretty cool. And I'll have to read Ian's review, see how they perform.

Brad Dowdy: All right. A couple more things.

Brad Dowdy: We've had just a wonderful amount of firepower. Follow up on this whole shower writing pencil situation.

Brad Dowdy: It's unreal. It's the gift that keeps giving. Myke, do you write in the shower? Do you have a shower writing set up at all?

Myke Hurley: Well, I think that this... Oh, no. Oh, I did it again. There we go. It's the first one. Mark it down. That's the first time. I will say, no, I don't. Now, why don't we actually ask the question to the person that the question was asked of? Yeah.

Mike Matteson: Thanks, Hurley. So, yeah. No, I definitely don't. I don't ever write stuff in the shower. I do occasionally listen. I listen to podcasts and that sort of thing while I'm in the shower and getting ready. I'll yell out responses to podcasts, but I haven't taken it writing things yet.

Brad Dowdy: But, so, yeah, this is definitely an awesome topic. And we got another email from a product that we had forgotten. And I was like, oh, that's a pretty good idea. But that pen show from the P-E-N-X-O, we never got the official pronunciation, but that's what I'm going with, from Kickstarter, which is just an aluminum lead holder. So you just have the aluminum and the graphite. That could be a good option. I'd be worried about dropping that. If you drop that, your lead is gone. I mean, it's just going to break. But pencil seems to win the day in the shower, so you just have to get the aqua notes or write in the rain or expedition edition field notes and find you a good pencil. And Matthias from Blystift also said, like, some of the really, really cheap mechanical pencils like we mentioned last week, Myke, were a good idea. He said anything under $2 is probably going to be fully plastic, so you don't have to worry about rust or anything getting all messed up in there.

Brad Dowdy: And last thing, last thing before we get to our guest and get into all his inky goodness, I want to talk about the new Black Wings real quick. Like, I didn't plan on it this week, but Myke, but you put them in. Did you have any thoughts on these? You don't have a subscription to this, right?

Myke Hurley: No. No, I don't. Okay. I looked at these, and this seems super boring to me, man. I'm not going to lie. Like, I don't get the appeal of this one at all.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. I mean, I'd say that's about right. I do like them better than the 24, which is the all black edition, surprisingly, because they have the same graphite cores that they have the firmer, firman dark, the new core that they invented for this product lineup. They remind me when I opened these up, they reminded me of those pencils I got as a kid with all the football teams. You know, they had like the silver and the gold paint jobs and had all the team logos on them and things like that. I don't know. It just looked like, I think the pinstripe around the ferrule kind of made it look like a football pencil to me. And that's what I think of. So, I mean, yeah, it's fine. I mean, it is what it is. No big deal. I don't really love it. I don't really hate it. I'll use it. That's what I actually picked before I even saw this in the show notes. This is what I'm using for my show notes today to write with just because I got them yesterday and wanted to try them out because I do like the core.

Brad Dowdy: I probably like it better than the 24, which was the first one to use the core. But I still like some of the other editions better.

Myke Hurley: Yeah, this one doesn't float my boat, I've got to say. There's a couple of them where I said to you, I was like, oh, that looks interesting. But this one, I know it's trying to evoke something, but what it's evoking doesn't stir up anything in me.

Brad Dowdy: Right.

Myke Hurley: Yep. I'm with you. All right, let's take our first break and then we'll get into talking to the mic that everybody wants to talk to today, which is not this one. But first, I want to take a moment to thank our friends at Foot Cardigan for supporting this week's show. Have you ever wanted to be known as the best gift giver in the world in the holiday season? Do you want to be the envy of everyone you know? Do you want to be able to walk down the street and people will stop you and be like, whoa, where did you get those socks from? If the answer to any of these is yes, then Foot Cardigan is here to make that happen. Foot Cardigan delivers fun socks every single month to your doorstep. They ensure that your feet never have to be seen out in public again with just those boring plain white socks. And the best part, you don't need to choose what pair you get because every month you'll get a surprise pair of socks in the mail from Foot Cardigan. And their subscription plans start at just $9 a month. Foot Cardigan socks are a fantastic holiday gift or a birthday gift or just something for yourself. I treat myself to a Foot Cardigan subscription. I'm wearing some Foot Cardigan socks today that are pink and blue and have a robot on them. Now, you need those. Everybody needs pink and blue robot socks. Yeah, totally. So that's why you need a Foot Cardigan subscription. They have socks for men, women, and kids in a bunch of different styles. Go to FootCardigan.com and you'll get 10% off with the coupon code PEN, P-E-N. That is FootCardigan.com, promo code PEN at checkout, and you'll get 10% off any subscription to any of their socks. Whether you want to go for the regular socks, the no-show socks, or the luxury socks, you're going to get 10% off. Thank you so much to Foot Cardigan for their support of this show and Relay FM. Yeah.

Brad Dowdy: The code definitely works because I did go get my no-show subscription after last time they sponsored the show. Yeah, you did. They look pretty cool. So I'm excited to see what happens here in my mailbox very soon. All right, Mr. Madison, you ready?

Mike Matteson: Yeah, let's roll.

Ink Dependence Blog

Brad Dowdy: So I want to talk about, so if you're not familiar with Myke Madison, he runs a wonderful blog in the PEN community called Ink Dependence. Mostly ink reviews. You do mix in some PEN reviews and other things from time to time, but mostly ink. So why don't you tell us about how you got started doing that? What made you start writing about ink and PENs and fountain PENs in this whole community and everything like that?

Mike Matteson: Yeah, so it's actually my wife's fault. It's totally Audrey's fault that this blog happened. So back in 2010, 2011, something like that, I took a job out in Greensboro, North Carolina at UNC Greensboro, where I still work. And Audrey was finishing up her PhD in Tennessee. And so we were living apart for about a year. And she was bored. And so she started a nail polish blog, which she still does. She changes her nail polish almost every single night, just for blog purposes.

Brad Dowdy: And I'll go ahead and I'll stop you right there. Her work is awesome. She can definitely do some really, really cool stuff. I've seen it and I follow her on Instagram and everything.

Mike Matteson: Yeah, she will love to hear you say that. So she's been writing right on the nail for a long time. And then so she said, you know, you should start a blog. And I said, I don't I don't I don't care. What am I going to do a blog about? Nobody cares what I have to say about anything. And so, you know, every once in a while, I'd write about a book or I'd write about, I don't know, a beer or something like that. She's like, you know, you probably ought to focus on something that you that you like and that changes a lot. I'm like, I like beer and it changes. She says, no, no. But yeah, that'll become an alcoholic. Like, yeah, I said, you know, you like fountain pens. Like, yeah, that's true. But, you know, I've only just got back into them or whatever. And so around 2012, apparently like February of 2012, I started like really blogging about pens and ink and stuff. And that's, you know, around when ink samples became a thing that was easily available on the Internet.

Mike Matteson: So I started blogging about them because I could get them pretty cheaply and easily, especially on the kind of like just post grad student budget. That I was running with. So, you know, so that's how it kind of got started several years ago. And I was looking for for names. And actually, my first inclination for starting a blog, it was going to be called Pen Addict. And I was like, oh, let's see if that's taken. Son of a it was totally taken by some Yahoo. I don't know who it was.

Brad Dowdy: That's amazing. You never told me that.

Mike Matteson: At least that's how I remember it happening. I can't tell that's for sure. I'm pretty sure that's what happened. And actually, I think Audrey actually came up with the name Ink Dependence because I like mixing words together. I think that's fun. But yeah, that's more or less how I got started. And I just haven't stopped.

Brad Dowdy: So were you always into pens and ink and things like that for the past several years since your childhood? You know, like you obviously had an inclination for this before you even started the blog.

Myke Hurley: Inclination.

Brad Dowdy: Oh, God, I was about to call him on that. Yeah. Hey, don't think that wasn't on purpose. I got game. Wow.

Mike Matteson: So, yeah, yeah. Since I was, I mean, as far as back as I can remember, I've been into, you know, pens and office supplies and all that kind of jazz. I mean, I have a, I saw Anna did a short video where she did like a scribble with every pen that she had or something like that. I was like, man, I want to do that. But I've got, I've got too many. I don't have the time. Maybe, maybe during the winter after I finished all my grading for the semester or whatever, I can get into that. But while I was browsing Myke's, you know, videos before this, I saw that standing desk thing. And I'm like, oh, I've got to go to Ikea. Well, I've got a couple of Ikea helmets, which is these kind of like tall metal drawer sets. I've got two of them basically full of pens. But, yeah, no, the original question about how I got into it. Yeah, I've been into it forever. I mean, I remember using my mom's pens when I was a kid. Like, she used to have these, I don't know who makes them, but Le Pen, L-E-P-E-N, I think. Marvy. Yeah, yeah, that's right. I used, I remember using those. Which is a Hallmark company, by the way. Really? Oh, that's neat. Yeah, I believe so. I think I learned that from Anna. Yeah. I used to steal those out of my mom's purse and completely ruin the tips, I'm sure, because they're kind of fragile. And then I'd steal my dad's mechanical pencils because he was an engineer. And, yeah, just kind of forever. And fountain pens, I got into, I don't know, later, like, I don't know, late high school, maybe early college or something like that. But, you know, I was too broke. So I had like two fountain pens for, I don't know, several years. That's kind of hard. Yeah.

Brad Dowdy: So would you bring those to class? Like, when you're teaching now, what do you use?

Mike Matteson: Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. I've definitely had students comment on them.

Brad Dowdy: Like, a pen or some ink there. Like, do you ever bring that into class?

Mike Matteson: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I've always got at least a couple of fountain pens on me. Oh, a couple. I've usually got a couple of cases of fountain pens on me. I usually got one in a placket or a pocket of my shirt or something in one of my pocket. And then I've got a ballpoint that I'll hand out to other people. And usually a retro 51 just to bring that into the show early. And, yeah, I've had students say things like, you know, your handwriting looks like it's from the past. I'm like, okay, cool. That sounds good. But my handwriting is not good, y'all. But, you know, it looks old-timey to them. I actually had a student that I made really angry one time. And he said he was just – he came to me in class a week or so later and said, I was really fuming about that thing that you said. And then, you know, I Googled you to get madder. And he's like, I found your pen blog. And I'm like, I really like fountain pens, too. So now we're bros. Oh, man. That's amazing. Yeah. I mean, I haven't seen him in a while. So maybe not that much of a bro. But at least, you know, he caught me out of trouble that time.

Brad Dowdy: Oh, for sure. For sure. So you focus on the ink because, like you said, you're getting the samples and things like that. So when you're reviewing – let's talk a little bit about, like, kind of your review process. When you're reviewing an ink, what are you looking for? You've done so many now. Like, I'm sure you have a pretty good, you know, feel in, you know, what the ink's going to be like or how it's performing, how it relates to other inks. So what are you looking for when you're reviewing an ink?

Mike Matteson: So my reasoning behind my ink reviewing is that, look, ink and such is going to depend so heavily on all the other components of your writing setup, right? I mean, it's the three-part thing. You've got your pen, your ink, and your paper. And so inks are going to depend – their performance will depend more or less on how those things work. So I know that everybody's mileage is going to vary. But what I can do on a blog is, yeah, I've reviewed a ton of inks. I mean, several years of inks, four or five years, something like that. And I have hundreds of them. And I know how my pens work. So I can say, you know, this is an ink that's going to be more free-flowing or it's going to be a drier ink. I can show how it performs on different kinds of paper. I can sort of talk about it over the long term because some inks will change into your pen a little bit. Some of them condense faster than others and get darker or that sort of thing. And so I think I can give people at least a pretty good idea of how that ink is going to work for them when they start using it. And so that's what I try to do. I think of it like a resource.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, I think it's important that you brought up like the whole pen, ink, and paper thing. We tend to forget that like a lot. Even me, you know, sometimes when I'm like getting fussy at an ink or a pen, I was like, well, maybe I should try a different paper. Or maybe it's not the writing for this pen or maybe this nib can't handle this type of ink. So, yeah, I think that's like always important to consider. Like when you're looking for an ink, it's not necessarily an apples to apples comparison when you're, you know, looking at a review or shopping around for different inks. It's going to be how you're going to use it, what pen you're going to use it in, what paper you're going to use it in. And that gets lost in the shuffle even for those of us who do this like all the time.

Mike Matteson: Yeah, that's why I started using Rodia as my, you know, my my review medium pretty early on. I originally started doing it in just kind of like printer paper type stuff. I found a template on FPN, I think. It was a pretty cool template. A lot of people use it. But printer paper varies so wildly. I mean, sheet to sheet, it can vary. And so I figured, you know, I'm going to use a paper that's pretty popular. It's easy to get and it's not super expensive and it works well. And so that's why I settled with Rodia. And not every pen, not every ink works super well on Rodia. But it's at least one that's kind of a common denominator and people know how it works, I think.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, yeah, for sure. So you've got all these years worth of ink cataloging, essentially. Do you have a few brands that like stand out from the rest or, you know, that you really have high expectations for every time you try one out just because they've proven to be like really good performers in the past?

Mike Matteson: Um, yeah, I mean, I've got a couple. So, like, there are some that are kind of controversial. I know every time I mention Private Reserve or Noodlers, people like feel the intake of breath. But, I mean, they're huge brands that have like these wide catalogs of inks. And some of them are great and some of them aren't. And so my early expectations were kind of very low, like per ink. I wouldn't say this is going to be a great ink because it comes from X company. But since, I mean, there are some manufacturers that just make really good ink. And so I always have high expectations for sailor inks. I haven't had too many of those let me down. There's a couple I don't really care for, but the rest of them are very good. And I really like Franklin Kristoff inks. Some of them aren't really my favorite, like they're not quite the right color. But all of them have flowed well for me. All of them seem to work just as they're supposed to.

Myke Hurley: Yeah, I have a black ink made by them that I really like, but I don't remember the name of it.

Mike Matteson: It's probably classic black. They've only had a couple of blacks.

Myke Hurley: I think the one that I have, they don't make anymore. Like, they just stopped making it. And I picked up a bottle in Atlanta maybe two years ago.

Mike Matteson: Oh, I don't, because they had one that was called like black magic black or something like that. That's what I have. And you like it?

Sailor Inks

Myke Hurley: Oh, I think so.

Mike Matteson: So that's an ink that is singular in its ability to bleed through everything from every nib.

Brad Dowdy: Exactly, yeah. If you didn't say it, that's the one that like shoots immediately through the back of the page.

Myke Hurley: Okay, I don't think it's that one that I have then. Yeah, no, it wouldn't be.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, that one got killed like right when they released it because it performed really poorly. But in general, I agree with you. And most of their inks, they're actually some pretty cool colors and perform really well.

Mike Matteson: Yeah, I mean, the thing about black magic is that it's supposed to be quick dry, and it definitely does that. But it just didn't work out well enough, I think. So full disclosure, since we're going to talk about ethics, my wife works at Franklin Kristoff now. This is a pretty recent development. So I...

Myke Hurley: Uh-oh, uh-oh. We're stepping into an ethical black hole already. I can't believe it.

Mike Matteson: Yeah, yeah, I know. I totally want to talk about that later in the ethics section. Yes. But, yeah, so she works there. So that's my full disclosure. But nonetheless, I did all those ink reviews well before she started even thinking about working there.

Brad Dowdy: So... Yes. And if you've been to a pen show recently, say in the past, what, three, four, six months, maybe since the summertime, you've seen Audrey probably working for Franklin Kristoff at their table. And she's wonderful. And I always go over there and check on her because they're always so busy. I'm like, hanging in there. How are you doing? You doing okay? She's like, oh, yeah. I haven't sat down.

Myke Hurley: Yeah, I maintain the Franklin Kristoff table at any pen show is one of the very best things that you can see. Like, it's just so good. It's set out, like, so superiorly to everybody else. You know, like how they have the stations, like all the testing stations, and you kind of go through and effectively build your own pen. It's just perfectly designed. Very, very smart.

Brad Dowdy: I was going to say, you mentioned the Sailor inks. And I had this question in here later in the list. But since you mentioned them, I want to talk about the new inks because I'm a huge Sailor ink fan. It's probably my favorite ink brand. But I haven't bought any of the new colors yet. And you've got samples of all of them. And I just wanted to kind of get your feel, I guess, number one overall as a group of inks, how they compare to their last inks, and then kind of what are some of the standouts from that lineup? Because I need to go shopping.

Mike Matteson: Man, I have been holding myself back from shopping because I know I'm going to go to more pen shows soon. And I'm like, I've got a, I've been cataloging inks and I'm up to like 400 and something counting samples. So I've got inks. I don't need more bottles, Myke. So I actually had a few in my cart and Audrey said, did you, do you really need bottles of those? I'm like, not now. So the new collection, I think, is overall pretty strong, but it's less utilitarian than the last. And I'm glad they didn't get rid of any of the old inks because there are some real standouts in that older set. I mean, it's not old. It's like a year, year and a half old or something like that. But there's some real standouts in there. But a lot of them are like blues or very dark colors, that kind of stuff. And this new one, this new series really brings out the colors. It's got, I mean, oranges and pinks and light blues and greens and reds and purples, right? Right. So of those, probably my least favorite. And I know this is one that Anna really picked out last on the gift episode or something. The Sakura Mori. Sakura Mori. And it's just too light a pink for me. It's not my jam, but it seems like a good ink. And likewise, I think the light blue, the Yuki Akari, I think it's called, is a little bit too light for me as well. But it's a nice bright blue if you're into light blue. But standouts, man. The Riky Cha, which is this like, I don't know, it looks like wet tea leaves or something like that. It's kind of a brownish-greenish ink. I love that one.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, see, that's a color I'm trying to get into. Like, I feel like I should enjoy that color. I never buy anything. But that might be one I have to branch out my color palette on.

Mike Matteson: Yeah, Riky Cha is great. Also, Diamine Salamander is kind of in the same vein, but way darker. Yeah, and the Doyu from the Sailor's Last Set is also super good. It's like an extra dark brown. So that one's a standout. And also, Irori, the red, super good. I've been using that one a lot because it's paper-grading time. And, man, it's just a pop-off-the-page carmine sort of red with a little bit of gold sheen to it. Not a ton, but enough that you can see it if you use a broad nib or something like that. And it's really good. And then third on the list, I think, would have to be Chushu, which is this kind of like... It looks like a gray mostly, but it's definitely like a violet gray kind of color.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, so that's number one on my list. That's what I was telling Anna. Like, that's the one I want to see in person. That's a color I will really dig if it's what it's looking like on the paper and all the samples that I've seen so far. Like, you know, I'm obviously an orange guy and have, you know, Sailor oranges coming out in my ears before I even buy this new bottle. So, but having something like that purple-y gray kind of... That one I'm going to put at the top of my list. And then maybe like the tea leaf one that sounds really, really cool.

Mike Matteson: Yeah, I actually wrote my show notes since we're talking about what we wrote our show notes in. I wrote mine in Chushu. So I'm trying that one out now. It's probably going to be one of the next reviews I do. Cool, cool. It's very good. It's purple, but it's gray, but it's definitely got a little bit of a purple-y cast to it.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, I have an old Sailor ink. I'll have to... I don't know the name off the top of my head, but buying it, you think it's a gray, but in the pen and on the page, it comes out purple. So I wonder how similar it is to this. I can't remember the name off the top of my head. So out of all your inks, do you have a go-to color? Like, I'm known for blue, blacks, and oranges. That's kind of like my range of things. And Myke's pretty much into orange as well, Mr. Hurley. Do you have any particular ones that you always go to? Like, if you get a new pen, what are you filling it with, I guess, is probably a good way to put it.

Mike Matteson: Well, that's going to be like a two-fold answer.

Brad Dowdy: It's never straightforward with ink.

Mike Matteson: Or with philosophy professors, right? So my qualified answer is Aurora Black. And the reason it's qualified is if I'm getting a new pen and I want to make sure it works, I'm going to put Aurora Black in it. Totally fair. That's what I use Pilot Blue Black for.

Brad Dowdy: I totally agree with that.

Mike Matteson: Yeah, yeah. That's a good one, too. It's hard to find. And so I don't want to use up my bottle of the Pilot Blue Black. Just the Pilot ink. It's kind of hard to find around here. But yeah, Aurora Black will flow in anything. So if it works at all, Aurora Black will work. Whereas if I put some other inks in there, you know, it might be hit or miss. So that's usually what I go through first. But that said, I don't like writing in that. I don't love Aurora Black. Sure. It's just a little bit bleedy and it's a little bit too wet. So it's not my favorite thing. So my go-to, the one I keep putting in pens, I've got a couple. And one of them is Franklin Kristoff Emerald 357, which is this like brilliant emerald color. I love it. It's in at least like two or three pens right now. And the other one is Private Reserve American Blue. And I've got that in a pen constantly because I love that ink.

Brad Dowdy: Okay, cool. I'll have to look. I need to look at that. Like I'm definitely on the side of I don't really use much Private Reserve or Noodlers because I'm worried. But I probably shouldn't be. You know, I clean my pens well enough. I have good fountain pen hygiene to where I should branch out a little bit more and not like freak out over every little thing that goes into my pen. Have you found that to be the case with like a lot of your Private Reserve and Noodlers not really an issue as long as you're maintaining your pens well?

Mike Matteson: You know, I wouldn't necessarily put it in older pens with, you know, what might be a more fragile seal or a sack that's subject to, you know, pH differences or something. But I haven't had any problems. And maybe I've just gotten lucky. But I've been using my first ink was Private Reserve. It was Lake Placid Blue. And I've used that for, I don't know, like 20 years or something. I've never had a problem. I use a lot of Noodlers inks, especially starting out. It's been a little I've been getting back into them a little bit recently just to, you know, some some show specific ones and that sort of thing. But I haven't had any problems, really, like some of them are a little oversaturated. And so maybe they don't flow perfectly. But I mean, it's nothing a little bit of water won't take out of your pen, you know? Yeah.

Myke Hurley: Yeah. I can't live my life that way.

Mike Matteson: On the edge. You can't live on the edge, Hurley.

Myke Hurley: I really just struggle to try and use inks that could damage my pens. You know, like, I really just try my best to avoid that.

Brad Dowdy: I mean, it's fair. You have enough options to where you don't have to do that. Yeah. Right.

Myke Hurley: And I'm not a big and I don't I don't think I'll ever be like a big ink swapper. Like, I like to find inks that I like and then I will use that ink in a pen for like four years. Right. Oh, yeah. I can't do that. I can't do that either. I like to just find the ones that I like and then every now and then I'll add to it. Like, I added like two or three colors to my collection recently, which is like unprecedented. But it was just like I basically, you know, I said, like I bought two inks just because there was one for two like for two different pens. I mean, because I just wanted to do the pairing. So maybe I'm moving a little bit more towards that. Right. Like maybe this might be like when in episode one of the show, Brad said he didn't like fountain pens. You know, this might be one of those things that people can point to in a few years time as I maybe move more into inks because I'm buying less pens. You know, like inks might be a nice thing for me to start looking more at. Like I was just looking at those sailor inks that you were talking about and kind of lusting after them a little bit. So maybe I'll add one of those. But like I just as it stands right now, I don't like to to to change my inks too frequently because I like what I like. But I'm really just not keen on keen on like taking the risk, you know, especially with my nicer stuff. Maybe with some cheaper pens, I would be more willing to do it. But, you know, if you're looking at putting like an ink that could damage the inside of my Edison, like I'm just not interested in doing that.

Mike Matteson: Well, I don't know what's going to damage your Edison. I mean, those are cartridge converter pens. They've got a standard, you know, like stainless steel nib and like a plastic feed or whatever. Like there's nothing. Those inks are not going to hurt it. You know, be careful with the vintage stuff, maybe. But I mean, your average Edison's or whatever.

Brad Dowdy: Additional, additional moving parts. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Myke Hurley: Yeah, like this is the pump filler Menlo, right? Like that is a.

Mike Matteson: Oh, yeah, yeah. That's a temperament a little beast right there. It is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Myke Hurley: Like I've quite frequently just put an ink into that and pumped it and ink just spurted out of the pumps. Like, right. Well, that's happening today.

Mike Matteson: Does that use a silicone sack? I actually don't know.

Myke Hurley: I don't know.

Brad Dowdy: It has. It's it has a silicone. Like there's a sheath and that covers part of the pump system in the back of the pen. I don't know exactly the material it's made of. But Brian has had some problems with that with some inks. So, yeah, that's a very specific case. Great pen.

Myke Hurley: Super temperamental because it's a really weird and amazing filling system.

Mike Matteson: But yeah, that's the reason I don't have an Edison yet because I really want one of those pump filler ones. I also don't want to spend that much money right now.

Pen Chalet

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Totally fair. Totally fair. All right. Speaking of spending money, let's let's talk about our good friends at Pen Chalet before I get into a few more ink questions.

Myke Hurley: You know, Pen Chalet, they sell all of the pen related stuff that you're looking for, including those sailor inks that we were just talking about. So all of the ones that we were just talking about, all of those new colors, I was Googling around to add them to my show notes and Pen Chalet popped up. So you can go get them there and you'll be able to get them with our discount, which I'll tell you about in a moment. So you can go there and check out all of the four season sailor inks if you want to. But you'll find so many things over at Pen Chalet from all of your favorite brands. Pen Chalet have fast and reliable customer service. They have free shipping on orders of over $50 in the US and great shipping rates for shipping internationally. They do ship worldwide. Pen Chalet has low prices on high quality pens and offers a 100% satisfaction guarantee. All you need to do is go to Pen Chalet dot com. That's P-E-N-C-H-A-L-E-T dot com and click the podcast link at the top of the website. When you enter the password Pen Addict, you will see this week's special offers. And you'll also get the code that you need to save 10% off on anything at Pen Chalet. Now, we have some special offers this week, Brad. We have the new Pelican M405 Stressman is on offer for listeners of the show.

Brad Dowdy: So I pulled this up while you were talking and I go, ooh, are we going to be allowed to talk about this? I don't think we can talk about price. Okay, because this is a hot, hot pen right now. This time of the year, it's a new release. The Stressman came out earlier. It was late last year in the 805 model. It is now in the smaller 405 model. And I always wanted one of those 805s and I could never pull the trigger on them. This is a very, very beautiful pen.

Myke Hurley: This is a hot stuff pen.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, and this is, I mean, this is one of the most, I don't know, not anticipated releases this fall and winter. But it's definitely a popular one, especially for all Pelican fans. They love this color, this pattern. It's a stunner. I was surprised when this one popped up in my screen, to be perfectly honest with you.

Myke Hurley: This is like how much Ron cares about our listeners. They've just come in for him and he's putting them straight up on offer for Pen Chalet. Like for fanatic listeners. So that's pretty sweet, right? Also, there are new colors of the Noodlers Nippon Set pens available. These are good to play around with.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, they're very popular. I don't have really any experience with the Nippon Set. Myke, have you had any experience with the Nippon Set, the Noodlers pens?

Mike Matteson: No, I haven't used one. Well, I take that back. I used one once.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, I haven't really used them myself.

Myke Hurley: And the offer is on the Music Nib versions.

Brad Dowdy: Oh, cool. And they are some pretty hot colors in here. I hadn't seen these. So yeah, these must be brand new as well.

Myke Hurley: They are. Also as well, Ron wanted me to tell our listeners that they're going to be stocking replacement nibs as well soon from Nemesine and Nox. Oh, nice. In a range of finishes. So you'll be able to get those from Pen Chalet too. I think he said they're coming in in the next week or two. So they'll be up on the site as well. So you want to check back for those.

Brad Dowdy: Awesome.

Myke Hurley: So that's it. Go to PenCalet.com. Thank you so much to Pen Chalet for supporting this show and RelayFM.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, I'm still wowing a little bit.

Myke Hurley: Hovering over that buy button, huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brad Dowdy: I don't need that pen. I don't need more than one 405. I have my one 405. That's not one I'll have multiples of. But man, it's a good looking pen.

Myke Hurley: You know how this works, Dowdy. It's not about what you need.

Brad Dowdy: Well, it's totally not. So I did, you know, we talked about on the, you know, did we buy anything for Cyber Monday or, you know, Black Friday? And I said no, but I looked at the Kaweco AC Sport in Orange and it was out during the weekend. He sold, Ron sold out of them. He got them back in like Tuesday or Wednesday. So I did order mine. So I did contribute to the economy. Good man. This holiday season. So yeah, I have that. I haven't inked it up yet. It just came in yesterday. So I'll link that up today. All right. So what am I going to ink it up with Mr. Madison? So I want to know two things. I want to know, since I'm the blue black ink guy, I want to know your favorite blue black. And since Mr. Hurley is the orange guy, I want to know your favorite orange ink. So, so school us here on, on what you're using for, for those inks or what you would recommend.

Mike Matteson: Yeah. You know, you put this thing in the show notes about favorite colors and I'm like, how am I going to pick? And I sat down and write out my list and it was easy. So I'm also, I'm a huge blue black fan and I'm also a big orange fan. So I'm right there with you. My favorite blue black right now is Sailor Gentle blue black. I need to get a bottle of it. I've only got it in cartridges, but I've got it in two of my Sailor pens right now and it is great. I, I really like that one a lot. I'd put it up on par with the pilot blue black for sure.

Brad Dowdy: You know, that is a surprisingly great ink for just like a basic stock lineup ink. It's not special. It's not on these annual release cycles. It's their stock. It's right there with black, blue and blue black. Just like the basic, most basic stock lineup of any ink brand you can have. Sailor blue black. It's, it's killer. I'm glad you picked that one because I don't even give that enough credit despite probably having it inked up all the time myself. So it's a wonderful, wonderful ink.

Mike Matteson: Yeah. I've got it in a, I've got it in a pro gear right now and I've got it in a 1911 large with a music nib. I'm just burning through it with that ink. Who are that pen?

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. It's got great, great shading, great sheen, just properties you don't normally see. And just a really what's considered a basic blue black. It's wonderful.

Mike Matteson: Yeah. And the flow is perfect. I've got, I've got no gripes with that ink. It's just like dead on a great ink. One of those ones, it's going to work. Yay. I like it. So cool. Um, and then for orange, uh, what are y'all's favorite oranges? Do you have a particular favorite orange? Who you got key? Cause I've got one, but.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm in, I'm usually using one of the, one of sailors oranges, whether it's the original Ken Mokusei from like 2010, uh, apricot, or I'm using Bung Box Mandarin or, um, gosh, there's one more. Um, that Kobe number 25. And they're all pretty much in that same ballpark, bright yellowy orange. Um, and then I like a Roshizuku Yuyaki. So like I could name those five off the top of my head that I'm inking up a lot in, in a lot of pens.

Myke Hurley: Uh, then Hurley's into the, well, it's, it's for you got key or forever. Yeah. For you got key. Yeah. Yeah. Superior orange.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. For you got key. That's going to be his, that's going to be his next label for you got key for life that he's going to print out on, uh, his little new little label maker.

Myke Hurley: I might do that. I might do that.

Inks

Mike Matteson: That can be his next tattoo. I know he wants another one. Oh yeah. Get it like some real gangsta script. Yeah. Across your back. Oh yes.

Myke Hurley: In, in the same, you have to get, that'd have to color match, right?

Mike Matteson: Yeah. Oh, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That'd be, oh, dude, that'd be, I would high five you for that one. Yeah. Um, so, uh, my favorite orange is it's going to, it's, it's much, it's darker and brighter than, uh, than Brad's favorites. Um, and my favorite is the Ackerman orange boven.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah.

Mike Matteson: Um, I have, I keep not getting a, it's another ink I keep not getting a bottle of and I am done with my sample and now I'm out and it's just like in a pen and I'm a little bereft. Like, like, oh, I can't use that pen cause I'll run out of the ink. So I need to get a bottle and I just haven't done it yet.

Brad Dowdy: But so that's actually one of my more recent ink bottle purchases. I bought it at one of the last pen shows I went to because that was, I was holding off on that one. It's like, I don't need this one. I use all these other ones. Um, but I just got, it's a little bit different than those. Just like you said, it's more of a straight up orange, but it's got some real pop to it. It looks cool on the page. I can definitely appreciate that. And I, I have a bottle of it and I don't ink it up enough. So I will work on that. Myke, you should try that one that you might, you might like that one.

Mike Matteson: I'll have to give you a sample when you, uh, yeah, I think it behaves better than you Yaki. Uh, you Yaki is a little bit like more, um, it's a little bit more, I don't know. It's almost fluorescent, right? You Yaki is really bright.

Myke Hurley: Yeah. This looks really nice. Actually. I think this looks like a really great color.

Brad Dowdy: And those, uh, Akramon inks just all behave very well too. So. Yeah. Um, I put down some other colors in, you know, what am I going to ask Myke about? And I did red and green because those are two extremely popular colors that I absolutely never use. Like if I'm using green, it's probably, I'm either going to use like a bright green, like the Akramon 28, the half quartier growing, or I'm going to use Montblanc Irish green. That's like the extent of my green palette and red is probably even less than that. So school me on some, uh, red and green inks.

Mike Matteson: All right, cool. Yeah, I can totally do that. Um, so let's start with red right quick. Um, so my go-to red is actually like, I don't know. It's some people are like, oh, that's a boring choice, but whatever. I don't care. It's Schaefer script red. It's just called red. Uh, and it is, it's a great red. It's a true, like just dead on red ink. Um, doesn't have any problems at all. It flows fine. It performs just fine on, uh, like the crappy paper that students use for stuff. Um, it looks nice. I have no problems with that. Also it's dead cheap. So, um, definitely don't overlook the Schaefer script red.

Brad Dowdy: I have heard that from more than one person.

Mike Matteson: Yeah. It's, it's a solid, solid ink. Um, and then, uh, but recently since I've gotten the sailor or Rory, it might take over that top spot. I haven't been using it for long enough to give it top marks, but it's, I really like it.

Brad Dowdy: When you started describing that, I wrote that down on my pad, like something to look at because I always get asked about reds and I'm just not a red expert. Um, I, I've definitely wrote that down as, as one to look at.

Mike Matteson: Yeah. I've got a couple more that are in samples that I haven't gotten a chance to use yet, but they look very cool. Um, so, I mean, other ones to maybe be on your radar. And like I said, take this with a grain of salt because I've only just gotten them, but, um, Pepeye Plume's cherry red looks very nice. Okay. Um, and also Robert Oster's fire engine red looks really cool. Um, but, um, yeah, so red, that's a deep color. There's a lot of reds out there. Um, and those are, I think, those are, I think the best. Yeah.

Brad Dowdy: And it's very, very popular, very popular colors. Just one. I never just really haven't explored.

Mike Matteson: Yep. Um, somebody in the chat says Okuyama. Yeah. Okuyama I think is a little bit dark to count as a red. Like it's more of a, it's more of a maroon kind of thing.

Brad Dowdy: See, that's the one I use and that's what I call my red ink. That's the one I do enjoy.

Mike Matteson: Yeah. I've usually got that in a pen too. I really like that. That's great. Um, and then for green, if you want to, or did you have something else to say about red?

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, no, let's do green. And then, uh, we'll, we'll start moving into, uh, some of these other topics we want to get to.

Mike Matteson: Yeah, cool, man. Um, so, uh, my top green is Franklin Kristoff Emerald 357. I know I already said that in this podcast, but yeah, that's, I've always got that in a pen. I love it. Uh, but that's a bright green kind of a, like it's almost a blue green. It's not quite teal, but it's definitely like a little bit of blue. It's a bluish tinge. Okay. Um, so there's that one. Um, what else is that? Well, for darker greens, there are like a lot of darker greens that are really good. Um, sailors Toku Wamatsu is one that I really like. Um, it's kind of like a pine sort of green. Um, let's see. Uh, um, oh, here's one you never really hear about. And that's the Anderson Pen's green bay, which looks just like, um, the, um, oh shoot. It's the sailor green that got discontinued and I can't remember the name of it. Uh, Epenard. Yeah, yeah. That one looks a little like Epenard. Um, that one's really good. And then there are a bunch of them that just came through from like, I've been looking at Papier plumes and that sort of thing recently. Cause I just got a bunch of samples and, uh, it got some really nice greens in there as well. So it just depends on what tone of green you like. That's the thing about like red there's reds and there's maroons and burgundies and such, but with green, there's such a wide gamut of possible greens.

Brad Dowdy: Well, that's why you're never going to run out of things to review.

Mike Matteson: Yeah. Yeah. That's my hope. I've just started using a Robert Oster's verde de Rio, which is, um, it's a more, I don't know. I think it's like palm trees. It looks like pot, like a palm green.

Brad Dowdy: It's very cool. Cool. I like that. And, uh, I, I've tested around some of the Oster inks. I did just order fire and ice this morning. So I I'm anxious to get that. That looks like something that's going to be up my alley.

Mike Matteson: Yeah.

Brad Dowdy: I don't have that one yet. I need to get it.

Mike Matteson: Cause I've been hearing a lot of things.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. That's how I heard. I just heard people talk about it. Then I looked at it and I was like, Ooh, okay. On the list. And I did order that. So. All right. So Myke, uh, Hurley, let's, uh, let's talk about our last sponsor. Then we're going to get into some really, really cool topics here that I want to make sure we have time to discuss.

Ethics Discussion

Myke Hurley: This week's episode is also brought to you by Capto from Global Delight. Now I want to tell you a little story. There's a school in Melbourne, Australia called the Yubara Valley Grammar School, where close to 1200 students attend. And in order to keep the study cycle smooth, the faculty is regularly trained with the new developments of the, their learning management system that they use to make all this possible, to make this training happen easily. The school uses Capto on all of their Macs. Capto is a powerful screen recording, capturing, and editing applications. The developers of Capto Global Delight are proud to know that their software is helping make this type of thing possible for this school. All of us use our Macs for different purposes. Maybe some of us code, maybe some of us make video or develop websites or create keynotes. And every once in a while, we all come across the need to capture the screen, record it, edit it, and share it. So maybe we can get feedback from somebody or something like that. I do it quite a lot to, you know, take little screenshots that I can share. And I do this very frequently. Capto helps you capture a full screen or part of the screen or maybe even an entire webpage. You can easily edit it, add annotations, numbers, arrows, and so much more. And you can even record yourself in parallel to the screen recording so you can make maybe tutorial videos or how to in just a few clicks. And all of this comes packaged in an app that's been designed for ease of use. Capto also features iOS recording. It's helping you record the screen of your iOS devices with ease. So if you want a screen capturing, recording, and editing app that is efficient, powerful, and time-saving, Capto is the app for you. You can go to captoformac.com. That's C-A-P-T-O-F-O-R-M-A-C.com to find out more. Capto usually costs $29.99. But as a special offer for listeners of this show, if you use the coupon code PEN, P-E-N, you will get 30% off. That is captoformac.com and the code PEN to get 30% off. Thank you so much to Capto from Global Delight for sponsoring this week's show and supporting RelayFM.

Brad Dowdy: Awesome. So, Myke, we mentioned in the beginning that you're a professor, you teach ethics, you have a philosophy background. So why don't you just kind of explain just, you know, what your background is, what your teaching background is to everyone to get a little bit more specific than just those two little titles.

Mike Matteson: Yeah, yeah, no problem. So I actually originally got into philosophy because I really enjoyed doing bioethics. I thought it was, you know, one of these super important and emerging fields. And so most of my background started out in bioethics. So applied ethics is the larger field. And it's basically figuring out how people ought to act, right? What the right thing is to do or how the right person or what kind of person the right person is to be, I guess, which sounds like a silly thing to study, I guess. But it's about thinking, right? It's about critically engaging with the world.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah.

Mike Matteson: Oh, and I teach a lot of business ethics, business ethics, engineering ethics, a lot of that kind of applied stuff. I should throw that in there.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, that's good. I mean, that's like perfect topics, honestly, to bring into this discussion on a pen podcast of all things. Because, you know, I run a business in the pen world. You know, I have, you know, responsibility to, you know, my readers. I have responsibility to my advertisers. You know, I have responsibility to myself to, you know, run as ethical a ship as I can. And it's things I think about all the time. So what do you see in the community? Would you have, like, any kind of, like, flagpole topics that you think are, like, important specific to the pen community as far as ethics go?

Mike Matteson: Yeah, I mean, so as a, I mean, I'm a blogger and a reviewer. So a lot of that stuff is, there's a lot of ethical stuff bound up into that, right? Definitely. And when I put that post over on Reddit, there's a lot of response about that kind of issue. Right. But there's also issues of, like, you know, what went down with Estabrook not too long ago and that sort of thing. And then there's, you know, the mass drop and gray market stuff you were talking about last time and, you know, those sorts of things. And I think those are all good issues that we ought to think about. Yeah.

Reviewer Bias

Brad Dowdy: So let's dig deeper into two of those things. One, let's look at the reviewer bias topic. So you sent me the post you made in Reddit. You basically said, hey, share with me what your pen related ethics issues are, you know, to the, was your post. And you got a bunch of responses. And the one that I chimed in and the one I found the most interesting was on reviewer bias. And the poster says, okay, this is a serious one. Fountain pen reviewers accepting pens from companies for review. I know it's been talked about, but not enough in my opinion. So they're basically, you know, alluding to the fact a lot of the, the Amazon changes that happened a couple months ago with their review program, you know, came up where people are getting, you know, essentially paid reviews and, you know, ended up being untrustworthy and, you know, all the kind of things that get tied up in, in that. So what, what is your opinion or what are your thoughts on this type of question? Fountain pen reviewers getting products for free?

Mike Matteson: Yeah, I think, so I think I also chimed in a little bit on that thread, but I wanted to save it because I was going to use it for this and for some other stuff. And I think, I think it's a bit different. So like you and I and the other, you know, pen and ink reviewers that we could name easily. The thing is we can name them, you know, there's a, there's a face and a name and like a reputation tied up in that. And we're not some anonymous person or even anonymous person without a, like a long history or something that might be, you know, posting some Amazon shill review or some sort of, you know, sort of disingenuous thing, right? So people like you and I are not going to stake our entire online reputation on, you know, a frivolously disingenuous review or something like that. Like, we're just not going to do it. Right. I mean, if there are, I don't, I can't really think of any pen reviewers or ink reviewers who have been, you know, like smeared with that. I just, I can't really think of it. Like, we're all pretty honest folks, you know? Right. So I think really the thing that it comes down to is can a reader trust us and our reputation? And I hope the answer is yes, you know?

Brad Dowdy: Right. So I think the general question that comes up that I don't really have an issue with and I actually agree with is if you get a product for free, your review is going to be inherently biased. I can't argue against that necessarily. Right. I mean, there is, there are elements at play, whether you realize them or not, that just changes maybe your wording or your thought process. But the way I explained it to the poster in the end, you know, I have, you know, I can only talk for myself. I've built up a long-term reputation of where, you know, if a pen is bad, I say it's bad. And if a pen is good, it's, I say it's good regardless of that source. And then it's up to the reader to believe me in that or not. And hopefully I put forth a good enough argument in not just one review, but all the reviews that I am consistently, I'm applying myself consistently to each review. And I'm not going to sugarcoat anything because I got the pen for free or I have an advertising relationship. It just doesn't work that way. But I also can't say that to someone who doesn't know me. They're going to think I'm full of, you know what? Right.

Mike Matteson: Yeah, right.

Mike Matteson: Yeah. Yeah. No, I think so.

Brad Dowdy: It's, it's, well, I mean, part of that's right. History plays into it.

Mike Matteson: Yeah, I've got, I don't know. So I tell my, I tell people that send me things or that give me things for review that they should not expect that I'm going to give them a positive review. I can, I can only tell people the truth about it. Um, and I've had vendors say, you know, I was a little afraid to give you these things because I know that sometimes you don't say the nicest thing. I, I don't know. On the one hand, like that's kind of fair. I don't necessarily, I'm not going to say I like a thing if I don't. But on the other hand, uh, look, I'm not going to just crush something if it doesn't deserve it. Um, right. Cause a lot of it's, as I said before, it's like kind of your mileage may vary type of stuff. I can't, uh, I can't speak for how it's going to work for you. I can show you how it worked for me. And I, I'm not going to, I, I don't know, I guess I could fake it, but look, my Photoshop skills are not good enough for that. So if, if I put a thing on there, it's going to be true. Um, so I show it, you know, the things that we review are very specific.

Brad Dowdy: It's not like we're reviewing a TV where generally people are going to have the same experience, right? Like you can have very different experiences with the exact same items that we're looking at.

Mike Matteson: Yeah, that's right. That's right. Um, and I, so, I mean, there are some things that I think a perspective reviewer or something like that are going to have to, uh, to think about before they decide whether they're going to accept, uh, advertising on their channel or they're going to accept products for free, uh, that kind of jazz. So I don't do advertising on my channel for like a bunch of reasons. Um, but we're going to talk about that. Yeah. I mean, so the, the thing about, um, accepting review stuff is that, uh, like you got to consider your ability to be objective. And so as, as a person who's been a professor for years and years, I'm sort of professionally objective. And so maybe it's a little bit easier for me to, to do that, uh, just because look, I, I grade tons of papers. I, I read a lot of stuff. I, you know, it's, and I don't want to connect those to individuals because that, that, that brings up like, um, inherent bias and all that kind of stuff. Um, and so I'm kind of professionally objective, but you got to ask yourself things like, look, um, can I handle criticism for the views that I put up out there and can I stand up to it? You know, is, uh, am I doing this in a way that I can back up my, my claims? Um, can I be friends with a vendor and still be objective about their stuff or, or a maker and still be objective about their stuff? Um, what if like a maker or a vendor sends me a thing and I have to say something bad about it and they don't like me anymore? Like, how am I going to deal with that? And so if those are, if you're like, oh, look, I, if I say something bad, I'm not going to, it's going to, it's going to be bad for me to say something bad like that. Well, then maybe don't accept free stuff, you know?

Brad Dowdy: Right. Right. Yeah. It, it comes with the territory. If you, if you can't tell it how it is, then, you know, it's probably not something you should be doing because I mean, everyone these days, I mean, the, like transparency is important. Honesty is important. And it comes across like, you know, people who are reading, like can, they can pick it out when you're not being honest and upfront with things. Um, one small thing I wanted to mention kind of in relation to this is, I will say the one thing that gets in my nerves the most is when someone negatively reviews a product and rightfully so, and then people will say, thank you for being honest. For some reason that throws me so wrong because.

Myke Hurley: Yeah. Because you can be honest when it's good, right? Like it's not just because it's bad that you're being honest.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. So someone mentioned that in that Reddit thread and I've seen that come up in lots of other places before. I'll see a comment. Like, thank you for being honest. Even on my stuff, it's, I, that really kind of irks me because all of it's honest. Like for me, like I'm speaking from my perspective, um, that, that one drives me crazy. Like you're only honest if you kill something. And I had that perspective is just, I believe very, very wrong.

Mike Matteson: We do tend sort of as people to take negative reviews more seriously than positive ones. Um, it's like, you know, negative opinion leader sort of stuff. It's like, oh yeah, that guy said a negative thing. That's probably true. Um, whereas we're more suspicious when somebody lauds a product and yeah, I, I, I can totally get why you're upset about that.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. I mean, and there's, it's nothing to get upset about. It is what it is. Like, well, I, I just, it's a more of a shrug. It's like, well, all my reviews are honest. I was like, I wasn't any more honest in this one that was negative than I was in this one that was positive. So that's, that's just a really, really weird thing to me. Thank you for being on like, oh, finally you're honest. It's like, what? That doesn't make any sense. That defies logic.

Mike Matteson: They're saying you're a liar the rest of the time. Right. I mean, that's also, that's also almost certainly not what that person means. Right. So, I mean, we should be charitable to people who've commented. Like, that's not what they mean. They mean something like, you know, thanks for always being honest, including now, but the, you know, yeah. Stop being nice, Myke.

Brad Dowdy: I agree.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. No, I agree. I agree with you a hundred percent. I'm just messing with you. But no, I think that's, yeah, you're exactly right. You're exactly right. So you mentioned a minute ago, the gray market stuff that we talked about last week. Do you have any opinions on just the, in general, you know, it doesn't have to be specific company related. Do you have, you know, where does this fall in the ethics realm within the pen and ink community? What are your thoughts just on that market as a whole?

Mike Matteson: Yeah. So I haven't, this is not like a major area of research for me or anything. So I'm not going to speak with like academic acumen or something of that nature. But to me, it really, it's going to depend on what kind of gray market we're talking about, you know? Right.

Brad Dowdy: The gray market is a gray area.

Mike Matteson: Yeah, that's true. And I liked the thing you said about that in the last podcast. I think that was good. It's true. It's absolutely true. So, yeah.

Brad Dowdy: Sorry. Go ahead.

Mike Matteson: Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's, I think that's true. I think it's also true. We should point out that it's not the case that like different cases are different. And so there's no answer, right? We, we can judge these individual cases on their individual merits, I think. And we have to, we can't just throw up our hands and go, well, that's fine for everybody. Or, you know, what's fine for you is fine for you. And what's fine for me is fine for me. Like, I think that's, that's a big mistake. But, you know, we can judge cases on their merits. And so, I mean, so some gray market stuff, you know, I don't really have a problem with. Like there, you know, you talked about like sort of arbitrage by going to, you know, Japanese companies and buying direct, right? And while we would have to pay more for US vendors because they're getting charged more and there's like the import duties and all this other stuff. It's like, well, yeah, I mean, I would like to, to, to support my American vendor friends when I can. And in fact, I usually do. I haven't gone to the Japanese sites because you pay less, but you accept more risk. You know, there's risk in shipping, there's risk, risk in customs. There's like these wait, you know, wait times and all this kind of stuff. I get to find people, you have to find shippers, all these like drop shippers. And it's, it's just a huge hassle that I'm just frankly not willing to deal with. And so I think you pay less, but you take more risk. So if you buy local to us, which is, you know, US stuff, then you're paying more, but you're also taking way less risk because that's a product that exists and you can get it in your hands.

Brad Dowdy: So, yeah. And I also think you're getting more, which I don't think we explained enough last time. You know, if you're buying locally in the US, you're getting a one-on-one relationship. A lot of times you're getting access to social media. You're getting to pursue content that these companies have created to expand your learning. You know, I don't think we elaborated on that enough when we were talking about, you know, buying overseas versus buying your, with your local, you know, or, you know, country specific based pin stores.

Myke Hurley: If you want to get super jargony, you could call those like value adds. Like that's an additional value that you get from buying it, which you can't necessarily put a dollar figure on, but it's something that exists.

Mike Matteson: Yeah, it's something like peace of mind or, you know, that kind of value add, that sort of accountability also that you get with those, with, you know, people that are a person that you can reach out to, you know. Right. This thing is wrong with my pen. Can you help me? And sometimes they can, as opposed to, you know, I got a thing that I ordered from Taiwan directly or, you know, Japan directly. And that person is not accountable to me perhaps, or I can't really get ahold of them or, you know, that sort of thing. And so, I mean, the gray market's full of more risk, I think. But so the problem is when it gets disingenuous. So when the actors are encouraging people to do things that are bad. So I've heard of vendors saying things like, not vendors necessarily, but some gray market vendors going to legit vendors and saying, look, we need to sell this product. And we'd like to, we can't get it from the vendor. They won't sell it to us this cheap. So I don't know, say like, like Pelicans or something like that. Like, look, Pelican won't give us this pin at this price. We have to charge this. But hey, if you just order some and sell it to us a bit above what you paid for it, then you get to profit. And we won't tell anybody where we got it from. And nobody has to know. Like, yeah, you know, if you got to make a statement like that, you're doing something disingenuous. Right. And you ought not to probably do that.

Brad Dowdy: So let's just say my inbox was full after that discussion, that specific discussion last week, saying the exact same things you're mentioning now. So, yeah, that's when you kind of tilt your head sideways and go, huh, is that what I want to be involved in? And, you know, make your purchasing decision that way. So it's an interesting thing. There's no straightforward answer. It's not easy to parse all the moving parts sometimes in the gray market. And it's definitely not cut and dry, as we have learned.

Mike Matteson: Yeah. But, I mean, there are things you can consider. Like, there are some things that are worth considering, right? And so things that are worth considering are like, you know, what do I value in this transaction? Do I merely value the dollar amount that I'm paying for a pin? Or do I care about the actors involved? Do I value being involved in illicit activities? Right.

Mike Matteson: You know, do I value the peace of mind that I would get from having that value add of accountability? Do I, you know, there's all kinds of things that we can, that we should consider, right? And it's not the case that everybody gets to make their own decision. I mean, you get to make their own decision, of course. But, like, some of those decisions are better than others, right? Absolutely.

Business Models

Brad Dowdy: So let's hit on one last topic, which is kind of near and dear to Mr. Hurley and I's heart, seeing that we kind of run businesses around advertising. And you are very well known, especially on your YouTube videos. Your intros go, what do they go? I hate ads. You hate ads. You know, is that how it goes? Something like that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about advertising. You know, just in a general, I mean, it can go a lot of different ways. We obviously have advertising sponsors for this podcast. Yeah. I obviously accept advertising on the blog. I also am in a different spot than I was a year ago where it was a side gig for me. Now it's a full-time gig. So my thoughts on advertising have been all over the place. And I don't begrudge, you know, the opinion of people who don't want to see any of that. And I get emails saying, hey, I can't read your stuff anymore. Because of the advertising. I'm like, you know, I'm totally okay with that. So what's your stance and thoughts on advertising in general? And how are you, you know, how you lay it out on your YouTube channel and things like that?

Mike Matteson: Yeah. So, I mean, my situation is admittedly way different from yours, right? I'm not doing this for a living. I'm teaching for a living. This is a fun hobby side gig type of thing that makes a little bit of money sometimes.

Brad Dowdy: Mm-hmm.

Mike Matteson: And so the reason that I don't do advertising is because I, if I'm using my blog, which is hosted through Blogger, which is a Google product, right? I could use AdSense and I could use that on my YouTube channel. But then I have no control over what people are seeing on my site. Right. And I, like, the pay structure is very murky and weird. And I don't trust it. And I don't like not, I don't like not being in control of what's on my site and being shown to my viewers. And so that's why I won't use that kind of stuff. Cool. Yeah. I would think about, like, I don't know, maybe placement ads on my blog like you do, which is, I mean, that seems fine. Like, those are vendors that I assume you have vetted in some way. Right. You know, they're not bad folks. Like, you know what's going on there. You're doing it on purpose. Yeah, I think. It's just like a pop-up. Like, I don't want to have pop-up ads on my blog from some weird place that I don't have any control over. Ugh, no thanks.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. No, I agree 100% with that. And the way I look at it is, I try to be considerate with my advertising, right? I have full control. Yeah. I can say yes. I can say no. I'm doing it because I believe, you know, the listeners or readers will, you know, enjoy. It's not necessarily the right word, but they will, you know, it's a related topic somewhat. You know, there's different variances on that. But, yeah, I think you're completely right. And, like, I don't have anything against Google AdSense. But as you said, you need to understand what you're asking of your listeners and readership when you have that, right? It's a different experience than direct advertising relationships like on this podcast, right? You're not getting random things showing up. Even though, you know, they will try to be fitted to you. You still don't have the full control of that.

Mike Matteson: Yeah, that's right. Well, yeah, that's right. And also, I mean, here's the other thing. When it comes to placement ads on my, like, inkdependence.com, I don't – sometimes my posting schedule is a little weird. I mean, when it comes to the end of or the very beginning of a semester, I am crushed with school stuff. And so I can't post two or three times a week. I'm doing good to post, like, once a week. I posted a vlog about this not too long ago. I was like, look, sorry, it's been slowing down, y'all.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, I saw that one.

Mike Matteson: But, like, for whatever reason, my readership doesn't really dip. And I think that's because my blog is more of a resource than it is, like, a source of, like, entertainment or something like that. Sure. But, like, I don't want to promise some advertising, like, I'll get this many hits a month. And then I don't. I don't want to promise more than I can produce, you know?

Brad Dowdy: Yeah.

Mike Matteson: And so I don't do that. So I do Patreon, which has been a great platform, I think. It allows people to, like, directly fund me if they want to.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. So, like, I'm a patron of yours. I'm a patron of Aziza's and Stevens and Matt Armstrong's all on Patreon. I love that platform. Has that been a good thing for you? Yeah, it's been pretty good. I mean, like I said, it doesn't make a ton of money or anything. Sure. But, you know, just the relationship, I guess, is more so than the money, right? You have fans. And, you know, a lot of people. One thing that's great about this community is, like, people really, you know, want to support creators and things like that. They've been super supportive of that. So I think something like Patreon is really, really good.

Mike Matteson: Yeah. I mean, it's always, like, amazing and a little bit gratifying to me that people are willing to, you know, pay a couple of bucks a month for a free thing. You know? I don't do, like, membership levels or whatever. Because, honestly, I don't have time to make extra content. Sure. Right, right. I'm like, look, here's the thing. It's never going to be behind a paywall. If you think that this is a good resource for you, if you have benefited from it, if you enjoy it, hey, throw a couple of bucks my way if you want to. If not, cool. I'm going to keep making stuff. So it lets people just reach out and say, hey, here's a couple of bucks. Thanks for what you do, pal. And I'm like, great. That's amazing. And I love it.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's great, too. So we'll have links to your Patreon, to your YouTube, of course, to your blog in the show notes. Is there anything else you want to talk about before we wrapped up? I think this was kind of an amazing episode. Mr. Hurley, do you have anything? Myke, do you have anything?

Myke Hurley: No, I think this has been great. I will say, like, Patreon is an interesting platform. I think that it does a lot of stuff really well, and it enables people to kind of have that system in place. I do have one thing that I do not like about Patreon, which is that it shows the amount of money that somebody makes. No. I just don't like that, because I don't think it's good at any level. I don't think it's good when someone's starting out. And I don't think it's good when somebody's very successful. Because at the top end, it shows how much money somebody's making, which may discourage somebody from supporting. Because they're like, oh, that person already makes $1,000 a month. They don't need my money. And then also at the bottom end, it's like, oh, this person doesn't make very much. And I think that having that dollar figure there really kind of, I don't know, I feel like it goes to actually undermine some of what they're trying to achieve. That's just my own personal feelings about Patreon.

Mike Matteson: Yeah, I think that is kind of a weird thing. And the other thing is that, well, it's not exactly accurate either. Because it's going to depend on what sort of fee schedule you have set up. So a lot of people that do per post charging, what it says that they make per post or per month is not actually accurate. Because a lot of people will set a ceiling, right? So if you set, you know, you donate $1 per post. And I do mine by month. I don't want to worry about this post thing or whatever, just a month. So if you do it per post, you know, say, I do $1 per post up to like $3 a month. But it won't show that on the Patreon site. It'll show, you know, this person makes $700 a post or some weird thing. When that's, you know, maybe not true. But yeah, I totally get what Myke's saying. I think you're totally right there, Hurley. I've never really thought about that before. But yeah, yeah, it's true. Yeah.

Brad Dowdy: Well, great. I think we'll get a bunch of feedback on this episode. And I think it was very, very worthwhile conversation. Not just from an awesome ink perspective, but from the ethics perspective. Because this comes up a lot now that like this community is growing. I mean, there's no doubt that there's like, you know, you never would have thought that the pen and ink community would have like influential bloggers. But it's like a thing now. And, you know, there's ethics that go around that. And there's ways to act and ways to handle all that. So talking through these things and having friends like you, Myke, to bounce ideas off of is certainly helpful. And we really, really appreciate you coming on and talking with us today.

Mike Matteson: Yeah, of course. I'll come back anytime you want.

Brad Dowdy: Absolutely. We will do it.

Myke Hurley: All right. If you want to find our show notes for this week, head on over to relay.fm slash pen addict slash 234. Thanks again to our lovely sponsors for this week's show for helping us out. That's Foot Cardigan, Captoe and Pen Chalet. You should support them and it helps support us. If you want to find Brad online, he's over at penaddict.com. And he's at Dowdyism on Twitter, D-O-W-D-Y-I-S-M. He's also at knock.co and penaddict on Instagram. That Mr. Dowdy, he's all over the place. If you want to find me, I'm at imike, I-M-Y-K-E. And if you would like to find the other Myke, you can go to inkdependence.com. And you're at Mattison on Twitter, right? M-A-T-T-E-S-O-N.

Mike Matteson: I'm actually, oh, on Twitter, yes. And on Instagram, I'm at inkdependence.

Myke Hurley: You guys, you just got to solidify on the one brand, right? Yeah, I know.

Mike Matteson: And my YouTube's got an annoying branding thing too. And I can't change the darn URL right now. I'm just like, oh.

Myke Hurley: I will say though that I did choose a different thing. I did choose Myke Hurley for my YouTube channel rather than imike. That's my one thing that's different. All right, thanks so much for listening, everyone. We'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye, guys. Goodbye, guys.