The Pen Addict 255/transcript

The Pen Addict Podcast Transcript
Episode:	255
Title:	Flipped My Toupee
Release Date:	May 3rd, 2017
Hosts:	Brad Dowdy Myke Hurley
Guests:	Ryder Carroll
Additional Information
Official page:	Episode 255
Audio File:	Audio Episode 255
Podcast page:	The Pen Addict 255
Length:	7171 min <br />1.183 h <br /> minutes
Previous Transcript	Next Transcript

Myke Hurley: From RelayFM, this is The Pen Addict, episode 255. Today's show is brought to you by Harry's, Squarespace, and Mac Weldon. My name is Myke Hurley, and I am joined by Mr. Brad Dowdy.

Brad Dowdy: Well, that is a very highly professional introduction voice, Myke.

Myke Hurley: We have a professional show happening today.

Brad Dowdy: Well, we have a professional guest happening today, so I think you're just trying to show off for Ryder Carroll, inventor of the Bullet Journal. Hey, Ryder, how's it going? It's going well. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, he put on his professional radio guy voice there. I don't know what that was all about.

Myke Hurley: Well, I think Ryder is maybe our fanciest guest, I think, you know?

Brad Dowdy: Well, he is the Leuchtturm master, so I don't think I'll make him do that for us this show, but we're going to talk about that more. And we're going to talk about Ryder's journey over the past two years. So, Ryder's been on the show twice already. And since the last time we've had him, between the second and this appearance, holy cow, have things changed. So, we're going to talk about that, Ryder. Let us jump into, like, three little quick follow-up things, and then we'll get talking. Does that sound good? Sure. All right. First thing, Myke, you talk about this, because I've known about this since its inception, and I want to know your reaction.

Vaness Artist Edition Retro 51

Myke Hurley: So, I found out about this actually, saw a prototype when we were in Atlanta. The second of the Vaness Artist Edition Retro 51s has come out, the Retro 51 Tornado. The previous year, last year, it was with Joey Feldman. And this year, this year is with Friend of the Show, Mr. Ben Quokka Bioworks. And they've worked together to create an Artist Series Retro 51. It's a pair. There's two different ones this time. And they're very different. I think there were two different ones last time, but correct me if I'm wrong. I think it may have just been the finial that was different.

Brad Dowdy: No, with the Artist Series, they do an autograph piece of artwork wrapped around the tube. So, there's visual differences, like it had a red clip and a different finial. But the main thing is the print that's on the pen tube.

Myke Hurley: Yeah, but this one, there's huge differences, right?

Brad Dowdy: Like the colors are different. Colors and some little end work finishes, yeah, on both ends.

Myke Hurley: So, this is just incredible. So, I don't know if it comes across in the images. There'll be a link in the show notes. But the detail is kind of, it's in relief, right? Like it's in 3D from the barrel. Like I am so excited about this. I ordered the pair, the pair set, because naturally. And I cannot wait to get this. Like I am such a fan of Ben's work. Like he's just unbelievable. And we need to get him on the show. I agree, actually. You may remember a long time ago, he created the handmade field notes for us way back in the day. The fiend notes. The fiend notes. The fiend notes. So, yeah, you think you should go check these out. And there are not a lot left, judging by the numbers left. Because you can choose the edition numbers that you want. So, these are going quick. So, if you want them, you've got to get them.

Brad Dowdy: They're going to be gone before the week's out. I've already talked to Lisa. So, if you hear this this afternoon when the show goes live and you're interested in it, you should go ahead and jump on it.

Myke Hurley: Definitely.

Brad Dowdy: The next new launch we have are the new backpack series from the guys at Bear and Fig. Joey and Adam dropped a Kickstarter yesterday. If you saw me on Twitter, I had some questions about that. So, Joey has kindly agreed to join us next week on the podcast to discuss not just the Kickstarter project, but we want to pick their brains. We haven't talked to them since they did all the subscription launch stuff. So, I have a lot of new questions for Joey. Adam may join us, may not. But we'll definitely have Joey on next week's episode to get all the latest details on what's been going on with them.

Myke Hurley: And also, we mentioned this a little bit last week as we were unsure what the situation was, but the DC Penn Show has now been announced. It's going to be at the Marriott Fairview Park in DC on August 4th to 6th. And we're going to be there.

Brad Dowdy: We'll be there.

Myke Hurley: We will be there. We were unsure because it didn't seem like there was an announcement date, but the date's matching up. It's in a location that we're aware of. We're happy. We're going to be there. And we hope to see you there as well if you're going to be in and around the area.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. So, sorry for the delay on that announcement, but that was kind of out of our hands. And we're glad that it ended up on the date we anticipated that it was. So, everything's on target for Myke and I to be in DC in the first weekend of August.

Myke Hurley: Yeah. Me, Brad, and Jeff will be there representing NOC. And we'll be doing meet-ups and stuff. There won't be a live show, as we mentioned before. Well, not this time around, but we will be recording an episode from there. And for Kickstarter backers, they're going to get a special DC Penn show vlog from me.

Brad Dowdy: Yep. Yep. Ryder, you want to come hang out in DC with us first weekend of August? We'd love to have you. I'll be welcome. Let's see what I'm doing then.

Brad Dowdy: I don't know. Myke and I were just talking before the show. We might actually have a spare bed for you. So, the offer's on the table.

Bullet Journal

Brad Dowdy: Well, thank you kindly. So, let's get into it, Ryder. You're known online, basically, as the inventor-creator of the Bullet Journal. And, you know, I think recently we've seen a huge change in what the Bullet Journal has become and how it's presented online, which we're going to get to all that. And that's what a lot of our listeners want to hear. But for our newer listeners, I do want to take a second and let you talk about how the Bullet Journal originated. You know, we'll have links in the show notes to your first two appearances on the show. You were on episode number 70, where you had just launched the system, right? Your website came out, and we were talking a lot about that. Then the next episode was 124, when you launched the Kickstarter project. So, kind of take us back to that, like, first year, maybe two years, of why you created the Bullet Journal and what your hope was for at the time.

Ryder Carroll: Yeah, sure. So, yeah, originally, I had just rolled off a year-long project that I was working on. So, I'm a digital software designer by trade. So, I'd been working on this, like, monster of a project that kind of had left me really drained. And the way that I kind of get motivated again is I take on personal projects. So, once I rolled off that, I had a couple weeks to spare. So, I was looking for a way to learn a bunch of new technology, but also to give something to the online community from who I have greatly benefited from. A lot of my skill is self-taught, but through the influence and lenses of people way better than me who, like, shared their knowledge for free. So, usually, when I set out to create a personal project, I kind of give myself very specific goals. Like, what is the purpose of doing this? Why am I doing this? And one of the primary ones was to provide value to people in a way that was unique to me. And, you know, there are far better designers out there, far better programmers. So, like, what is it that I can share with people that would add value that is unique to myself? And in racking my brain about this, there are a whole bunch of, like, things. But I kept coming back to the way that I took notes. It's something that I had been developing over an entire lifetime, just, and with a lot of failure along the way, to get to a point where I found it to be an incredibly effective way of staying mindful of both my time and being able to get a lot more done that had a lot more meaning to me. And it was something that I had really not thought about sharing with people because it was, you know, just designed for the way that my mind worked. But over the years, here and there, people would be like, you have to share this with people. And, you know, as you do with friends, you often dismiss whatever advice they give you, especially. So, I was like, why not?

Brad Dowdy: Who would do a podcast about pins?

Ryder Carroll: I mean, the thing is, it's when you love something and when you use it all the time, it becomes kind of second nature. A lot of times, you don't really have the distance anymore to see the fact that other people may not have the same kind of life or be able to appreciate it the way that you do. It's just, you know, you lose perspective. But when I showed it to people, they granted me that perspective again. And one thing that did occur to me while I was, like, thinking about this was that everyone that I know uses a notebook. Everyone that I know. And especially, it's an interesting coming from me because I work in an entirely digital space. Like, these are all digital natives. These are programmers. And, you know, they spend all day long in front of the screen. And yet, they were there with some kind of black notebook. I'm like, you know what? Maybe something that I can teach will help people. Maybe just in a very small way. You know, I developed a lot of this system because I had a lot of very intense learning disabilities growing up. And a lot of these methodologies were able to help me overcome that. And then, over time, actually excel at other things just because I learned a systematic way of staying focused. And I felt like as we grow up, we all kind of get ADD in a certain way. We have so many things that we need to pay attention to that maybe, like, just maybe this could help somebody. So I'm like, okay, fine. What I'm going to do is I'm going to teach this notebooking system that I have that has no names. It has no real proper language surrounding it. You know, this is just the way I operated with my notebook. There weren't any terms or, you know, there was no nomenclature there. So part of this personal sprint, as I call them, was developing all that. How can I teach this thing that I've been using for decades to people who have no idea, who just don't know how to use it? So that was part of my challenge. And what made it so much fun is like, okay, so what do I call it when you move a thing from one month into another month? Like, what do I call that? And what do I call it? And then I try to create mental models that people already understand. It's like migration. You're taking something that lives somewhere and you're moving it to another place where we'll then live. You know, you're not just moving it. So, you know, as a person who spent a lot of time thinking about UX and working as a UX designer, like I tried to leverage a lot of the skills that I had developed in the digital space and apply them into the analog space. You know, and a lot of the terms that I do use are terms that people understand. You know, an index is an existing thing the way that I've reinvented it. You know, just makes it easier for people to kind of get up to speed. And, you know, that's what I continue to do is try to refine the language and make the system as easy as possible to learn. So in that personal sprint, I built a website. And like literally the only thing that I focused on was how to teach the system, like how to teach the methodology of bullet journaling. It was a single scrolling page that just kind of broke down the steps as easily as I could. It really took the absolute essence of what I had been trying out. You know, there's a lot more to it. But like these were the basic foundational pieces that you needed to make this thing work. And yeah, so way back in the day, I launched that. And I was hoping that, you know, maybe a couple people would enjoy it and it would help them. At the very least, it might give them a new perspective as to how they could use their notebook, a novelty maybe. I know that for me, it had helped me overcome a lot of challenges. And I thought that somewhere out there in the world wide web, somebody might find value as well. So that was kind of the original idea.

Brad Dowdy: I think what attracted us to the bullet journal when it first launched and why it started, you know, hitting our inboxes and Twitter feeds was the way you set up the site. And you could go through the entire system. I think I didn't go back and look at it before. But we're talking like three to five minutes, right, of just kind of an introduction. And what hit home, I think what the takeaway from that was, wow, this is simple and it contains everything I need. And I think that was really just hearing you talk about it over the years. It was the system was born out of a necessity for you, right? I mean, you had to come up with this system and refine it over the years for you to get through the day, right? I mean, it was a struggle for you. You talked about your learning disabilities and being diagnosed with ADD at a younger age. If you didn't have these notebooks and pens and papers to get your thoughts down in an organized fashion, your days would be a whole lot different, I feel, right?

Ryder Carroll: Yeah. I mean, that's a very good way of putting it. It exists because I needed it to exist. Like I heard a wonderful definition of magic is to create things that you want to exist. You want to have exist. And that was exactly what the bullet journal was for me. I mean, where at first it was like not optional for me to have it over time. What's interesting is that it became something that I was really excited about having in my life because I feel like in school, a lot of time we're forced to learn about things that we couldn't care less about, right? And you're just sitting there watching the clock all the time and that's just kind of the nature of things. And throughout our lives, we run into these. But I feel like as adults, we have significantly more opportunities to actually focus on things that do interest us. And in that case, I found that what was really interesting personally is that the methodologies that designed for that kid who didn't care were significantly more impactful when I did care. You know, like it helped me then and then it supercharged my focus later. And that was a really interesting evolution to see. You know, it's like what happens when you know how to systematically focus on something that you are ready or passionate about.

Everyday Life

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, and it clearly clicked with a lot of people because it just became part of people's everyday life. People started using it. People started sharing their stories with you. I would see posts about, you know, I've started to bullet journal and here's the system that I'm using. And then at what point did you realize this little site I've created to share what I'm doing? Number one is helping people. And, you know, number two, what's the next step? You know, I want to take it to with like something like the Kickstarter, you know, and do even more with it.

Ryder Carroll: Sure. Sure. So I think a big surprise for me was to see how well it mapped onto people whose lives were incredibly different from my own. Like the bullet journal is designed specifically to become whatever you needed to be. But there was no way that I could see what it could become. Like I'm never going to be a mother. I'm never going to be a doctor. But like these are people that it started to resonate with. And that was really fascinating to me. They were using the methodology very similarly to my own, just tweaking it for these use cases that I could have never conceived of. You know, I just I can only operate in my own field of view. And then all of a sudden these people brought entirely new perspectives. And that was really exciting.

Ryder Carroll: And also it kind of showed me that like maybe I'm onto something with this. Like I knew it worked for me. And again, I don't assume that it will work for other people or at least back then I didn't. But then it did. And then it did again. And then people kept building onto it and adapting it for their own needs. And so it started to grow. And it started to get picked up by publications. And then it really started to grow. It became viral really quickly after I launched it. And I really didn't expect that to be the case. You know, again, once I saw like 100 people cross the, you know, the 100 visitor threshold on the site, I had a huge smile on my face. I'm like, mission accomplished. And then like a couple days later, it was like 200,000 people. And I was kind of like, oh.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. Yeah. So now, yeah. And then you offered them up the actual physical bullet journal that they could, you know, learn from and learn how to implement the systems. Is that how the Kickstarter came about? I think you wanted to do a couple of things with that project.

Ryder Carroll: Yeah. So in the first year, essentially, I kind of just sat back and listened to see where are people confused? What are they using it for? What is it very helpful for or helpful with? And essentially, I was just learning. Like I spent the first year learning from this growing community. Obviously, the exposure helped the community thrive and vice versa. So after a year, I was like, what else can I add? You know, I already taught it. That's what the website's for. This is it. But then it was just staring me right in the face. The next step is to highlight the community. So I originally launched the Kickstarter specifically to create a site that addressed a lot of the questions that were open in the community, but also to highlight the community themselves. Again, they can tell these stories about how this system I developed works in a way that I can't because they have a different use case than I have. So like in the meantime, we've had mothers and students blog on the site and, you know, that kind of thing. And that was the idea for the Kickstarter. And I also, again, I wanted to see if people cared. I wanted to see if people actually needed another website. So the way I did that is I put a price tag on it. I'm like, okay, it's going to take me this much time. This is how much it would cost me to build it. Let's see if people care, then I'll build it. And if people don't care, then they have what I already created and I'll be the end of it. But, you know, as somebody who's a big fan of Kickstarter myself, like I love the idea of, you know, funding people's ideas, not their products, but their ideas and their ambitions. I really resonate with that. I wanted to have something that the more ambitious backers could have something like a tangible relic of this experience. So I reached out to Life to them to see if they wanted to do a limited run of 999 books.

Ryder Carroll: You know, and for them, it would grant them exposure. And for me, it was really important because thanks to you guys, I actually started using them. And I just fell in love with their notebook instantly. And I really wanted to partner with the company whose product I vouched for. Like that's absolutely not non-negotiable for me. And yeah, they were in. And so we created this limited edition for a couple of the backer tiers. I think it was like $25 or more you would get a notebook. And then we launched the Kickstarter. And I think within eight hours, the funding had been reached. The funding goal had been reached, which again, kind of like flipped my toupee. And I was just sitting there just like, I can't believe this is happening. I mean, it's surreal. And like a lot of this experience has been. But then the second thing happened, which is the notebook sold out like immediately as well. And how should I put this? People were not pleased by the fact that there were no more notebooks available.

Brad Dowdy: Right. I remember that.

Ryder Carroll: Passionately displeased, let's say. So, you know, it occurred to me, it's like, maybe we should create a mass market version of this notebook. Because, you know, I'd be bummed if I couldn't get the notebook and I'd want one. So I went back to life to him and I was like, shall we try this out and see how it goes? And that's kind of how the business behind Bullet Journal started.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. See, Myke, I didn't even have to ask him to pronounce it. He's already done it twice. I know. He just wanted to show up. Yeah. It's wondrous. So the Kickstarter, the way you approach Kickstarter, I think, is the way, you know, a lot of us like to see it. You know, you said, I have this idea. Let's see if other people like believe in this idea. And this is the good test bed for it. And you said it right. You know, if it's successful, great. We move forward. And if it's not, you know what? You know, I've provided, you know, a lot of value in what I've done. And, you know, I'll keep teaching the Bullet Journal system. But, you know, maybe people didn't need like the community aspect or things like that. It's clearly they've been behind it. And so that was a hit. And I know it took a while to get all the notebooks filled, which that's a whole other topic we won't even get into because that's just the way things go.

Myke Hurley: That's just Hot Break Hotel. That's what that is.

Brad Dowdy: Well, I'm in the middle. I mean, like every project I do, it's like the same way. It's just going to happen. But, you know, in the end, you got a really, really awesome, awesome notebook. And, you know, Bullet Journal's off to the races. It's going well. Everyone's a fan of the system. And then there was a switch that flipped. I don't know the time or the date. But, you know, like in the last year or year and a half, something changed. And that's what I really want to dig into. Now that we kind of have the intro out of the way for those who are unfamiliar with the system, I think I want to get into these nuts and bolts of the last year, year and a half. But, Myke, let's first talk about one of our sponsors real quick, our good friends at Harry's. And, you know, maybe we could get Harry's bullet journal combination thing going like a branded thing. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

Myke Hurley: Tell us all about Harry's. For decades, huge razor companies have increased prices at the expense of their customers. So Jeff and Andy created Harry's to stop this trend. They knew that there was only one way to ensure quality and to keep prices low. So they bought their own blade factory. By taking less profit and selling directly to you over the Internet, Harry's offers their blades at half of the prices that you're used to paying. And with Harry's, you'll pay just $2 a blade compared to the $4 or more that you'll pay at the drugstore. Brad, can you tell me one thing that you love about your Harry's products?

Brad Dowdy: I never get tired of my orange handle. It's simple.

Brad Dowdy: You don't really get the cool colors and cool styles and cool feel of razor blade handles. And I use my orange one. Religiously, despite having all kinds of other ones at my disposal, that's the way I go. The one I use this morning. And I'm getting ready to pack for another trip, Myke. So, you know, all my Harry's shave products will be with me in Chicago this weekend. So come see me at the Chicago Penn Show. But don't ask to come see the Harry's collection in my room because that'd be a little creepy.

Myke Hurley: Harry's is so confident that you're going to love their blades as much as Brad does that they want to give you their trial set for free. You just need to cover the $3 for shipping. This set includes a weighted ergonomic razor handle, five precision engineered blades of a lubricated strip and trimmer blade, their rich lathering shave gel, and a travel blade cover as well. This is around a $13 value for you to try out. Look, stop messing around. Get started shaving with Harry's today by claiming your free trial offer. Just go to harrys.com slash penaddict right now and get started. All you need to do is cover the shipping. Thank you so much to Harry's for their support of this show and RelayFM.

Interview Ramble

Brad Dowdy: So, Ryder, I don't know how to start this next segment with a direct question. So I'm just going to ramble for a second, which is what I really do anyway. But like I said a moment ago, I don't know when it happened and I don't know when I noticed it exactly. It's been a while, like maybe more than a year, that the bullet journal started to take a life of its own outside of what the picture in my head was Ryder Carroll's bullet journal. It seemed to be even bigger. Like, I don't mean out of control in a bad way, but it felt like, wow, this has gotten like crazy out of control in a very positive way, right? You're seeing it anywhere and everywhere. Was there something that you noticed being the creator and owner of bullet journal? Is there a time that you can pinpoint where you said, this has changed and this is different?

Ryder Carroll: I mean, it's an interesting question just because like as it gained popularity, I'd get more and more interviews and some of them were just like buried way deep in sites for companies that have very recognizable names. And others were basically the first thing on the website. So it would just undulate between sometimes it was popular and sometimes it wasn't so popular. But overall, it was the amount of interest started to accelerate. And it's kind of like traveling, actually. You often really can't see the forest through the trees because you just keep moving from one thing to the next thing from the next thing. And then all of a sudden something will happen that'll make you stop and you'll be like, wow, I'm somewhere very different. And I guess that happened to me when a friend of mine called and said, your face is in the Wall Street Journal.

Brad Dowdy: Did you have one of the drawn faces, like the stippled? I don't know. What are the artwork they're famous for? Was it a traditional picture? Nope. It was a photo.

Ryder Carroll: Okay. And I didn't know that was going to happen. So that was one of those moments where I was just like, okay.

Ryder Carroll: Okay. I mean, it's surreal. It's really surreal. And then all of a sudden I started looking back and started seeing this. It was just, you know, a lot happened in a really short period of time and it continues to do so. So it's been incredibly exciting. And the best word I have for it is very surreal.

Brad Dowdy: So around when was that Wall Street Journal article? Do you recall?

Ryder Carroll: Oh, I don't know off the top of my mind.

Brad Dowdy: I would just say like, just to paint a timeframe, we're talking like in the past year, no more than two, I would say. Right? Yeah. Yes. So like just a little, just to kind of paint the picture. Where's the weirdest, where's the weirdest place you've seen your face or the bullet journal? Like, have you, have you come across anything? Well, like that's different. I didn't see that one coming.

Ryder Carroll: I mean, not to belabor the point, but I would say the Wall Street Journal. Yeah, same thing. I didn't, I didn't find it odd that they covered it because, you know, again, it's, it's about practicality and being more productive and like it helps people. But for me personally, as like a human being, myself, like this, like an art kid in the Wall Street Journal, like that was a very, that was a really crazy moment for me. Like if somebody told me that, I'd be like, that's never, that's never going to be a thing.

Brad Dowdy: So what, after that, after that article dropped, did you start getting a lot more requests for your time? Yes. Or information? Like, what did that look like? Did you hire an assistant?

Ryder Carroll: Um, I, I hired a customer service person for sure. Cause you know, like, again, there is a physical notebook that was eating up a tremendous amount of my time. At this point, I also had a full-time job and like, it was that, that was just too much. It was too much of my time. So I started with that so I could focus more on actually the communication aspect of bullet journal, which is, you know, my favorite part, getting to know people and getting to know what they use it for and how I can be more helpful. Um, and yeah, I, I guess the, that, that article came or came out around the time that a couple other really big articles came out and that kind of, I think blew the lid off it from a niche to something where a lot of different markets and verticals kind of like appeared all of a sudden. And then all of a sudden it was, as in the corporate space and in the medical space and, you know, in places where I had seen it before, but now they were looking in, you know, and that, that, that's, I think where the turning point came somewhere around that time. In those two or three months, that article chained a couple other articles and yeah, that's, that's when things got exciting.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. I didn't think about this question beforehand, but you mentioned it when you're talking about the, um, different spaces, you know, getting into, you know, different realms of, you know, say corporate or doctors or teachers. Did you start getting requests to like come teach the system? Like, did anyone want to say, Hey, come spend an hour with us and teach us how to do this. And we're going to, you know, give the, you know, the entire company a bullet journal and let's go through this because we think it'd be beneficial for our company. Yeah. That's definitely happened. Good. Good. And how, and I'm assuming you've, you've done some of those and those, what's the feedback been like?

Ryder Carroll: Well, I mean, it's interesting because I'm, I'm very careful about how I spend my time. I would be kind of a hypocrite if I didn't. The whole point about the bullet journal is being very mindful about how you spend your time and energy. So I've been very selective as to what I've done, um, for two reasons. One is I want to make sure that I can provide value. You know, that one company reached out to me about how they wanted me to come teach them. And it was, I can't really talk about what the company does, but it was so far removed from my knowledge that like, even, even generalities I felt wouldn't be helpful. On the other hand, you know, I want to go, um, teach at a middle school and like kids who couldn't sit still. And I'm like, yep, I know what that's like. You know, that, that's something I can talk about. Um, cause I was that kid. And, you know, it was, I wish somebody had shared some of this stuff with me because the thing that I love most about the bullet journal is it's, it's, it's very empowering to you. It shows you that you, you can figure it out. It might take you a while, you know, it took me a very long time, but I figured out how I could make it work for myself. And I wish that somebody had been there to explain that that's actually an option to you. Cause as a kid, you're usually looking to other people to tell you what to do or how to do things. I mean, you know, when you don't want to do something, but you don't really know how powerful you can be. And so that was kind of the message I was telling them. It's like, if you put in the time and the effort, you can figure out how to at least greatly lessen the burdens that you have to experience if not overcome them.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. I imagine that's gotta be pretty uplifting to go talk to the kids about that as opposed to necessarily corporate, which is, which is great. Like I would love to do that, but getting in there with the kids, like when they're young and you can picture yourself, the struggles that has to be extremely rewarding. I would think.

Ryder Carroll: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's funny because it also teaches me how I can get better at what I do. And that's really important to me. You know, like some kid was just looking out the window the whole time. And I was like teaching at that kid. Cause it's like, that was me. And like, finally I got him to turn around the last couple of minutes. But, um, like that's, I was like, okay, I have to shoot for that kid. And also to get back to the corporate space, you know, I have also taught bullet journaling to people like in my own field, you know, especially digital design and marketing. And all those things. And I can change the narrative to better apply to their reality and their perspective. And that's really, that's, that, that was fun as well to kind of teach it to people who already know what they want to do, um, and see how it can be helpful to them. So yeah, it's, it's, it helps me become a better teacher. And that's really what I'm interested in, you know, be able to, the better I can teach, the better I can help people. And like, that's the thing that I find is always a challenge with bullet journaling. If somebody gives you a blank piece of paper, it's like, it can become whatever you need it to be. A lot of people like, wow, that's cool. What does that mean? And, um, that's kind of the task that I'm trying to tackle, right? That is the challenge. Like if I say the bullet journal can become whatever you need it to be, I'd better be able to back that up. And that's really what I'm working on. Like, how do you use this as a student? How do you use this as a designer? How do you use it as a project manager? As a mother? As a soldier? As, you know, whatever it is, like, how, how can I help you understand this system? For people who have very specific needs.

Bullet Journaling

Brad Dowdy: So I think that leads a little bit into our next question. What we're going to talk about a lot during the rest of the show is kind of the proliferation of the system as a whole and how it's turned it. I won't say it's changed because it hasn't changed, but it's, I called it like in our show document, it's become, I've said, it's more of a, we see a lot more visual aspects of bulletin. Bullet journaling, be it, you know, artwork, design, lettering, as opposed to what I referred to as like the strict X and O's task-based system, you know, just a black and white system, which is highly modifiable for your personal needs. Well, it turns out a lot of those people's personal needs was to really have some detailed looks at bullet journaling and how it's kind of, that's what seems to float to the top, like when I'm looking on Instagram now and things like that. So what do you, how do you, I guess, feel about that type of look for the bullet journal as opposed to, you know, when you set it up, you know, you didn't have, you know, huge banners and intricate drawings on your pages, but that's a perfectly reasonable use for the bullet journal, right?

Ryder Carroll: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I think the, one thing that's changed a lot about the bullet journal is the way that I talk about it. And essentially at first, when I had just the focus of teaching the method about how to do it, I didn't really talk a lot about why, why you should be doing it. And part of that is because that's significantly more personal to me. But I've found that the more I share, the more people connect to the system. And one of the main reasons for bullet journaling is to spend time with yourself, to like spend time thinking about the things that matter to you. That's like the bullet journal is very much a mindfulness practice that's disguised as a productivity system. You know, it's one of these times where like you literally just take the thoughts out of your head and you can put them on the paper any way that you see fit. Mm-hmm. And they can sit down and kind of work with that. They capture what's on the inside onto paper and then they're able to figure out what that means to them, you know? And part of being mindful is like spending time understanding why you're pursuing the things that you're pursuing rather than just ticking boxes. It's not always about checking boxes. It's about pursuing things that have meaning. And for me, somebody who's been doing it for a long time, that happens very quickly, right? As I said, it's ingrained in me. So for me, I use my bullet journal as little as possible. It's like here's what's on my head. It's on the paper. I don't have to think about it anymore. And then, you know, during my reflection, I'll come back and then actually filter down even further what I'd written down. But that process, that process, that luxury that we have so rarely afforded to us anymore takes on different forms for different practitioners. So whereas I have, you know, just a black pen and, you know, a white page and that's all the space I need, other people express themselves differently. You know, they're still doing exactly what I am, but the way that they get to the same place I do looks different. And I think that is wonderful. Like, I think that's a beautiful evolution. It's very much about learning about yourself. And the way you do that is by showing up. And bullet journaling as a practice encourages you to do just that. You know, there's no big fanfare about it. Sit down with your book. Take a look. Like, what are you working on? Why are you working on these things? How are you feeling? You know, just show up. And you get to be present with yourself in a very practical, hands-on way. You know, a lot of people do meditation or they do yoga or some, you know, other different ways to kind of connect their mind and their body together. Bullet journaling can, I find that that helps as well. I mean, I do it in addition to meditating, but at the same time, it just allows my mind and my body kind of just to have a moment to be at the same place. At the same time. And it's offline, too. So that's a big part of it. You kind of just... Even better. Yeah. I mean, you can just, like, all of a sudden you start doodling and you're like, oh, you know what? This is fun. This is great. Or you can create a piece of beauty just for yourself. It's kind of the highest form of bullet journaling is when you found a way to express yourself in a way that is helpful. And that's where things get tricky, right? Because on the other hand, a lot of people are exposed to bullet journaling the first time on Instagram and Pinterest. And they see these incredibly beautiful, incredibly elaborate, like illuminated manuscripts almost. And they're like, I can't do that. That's not for me. Or I don't have time for that. That's not for me. Or they start trying to emulate that without understanding the underlying methodology, which is very simple and very lean. You know, the whole idea is you can get this thing, like journaling at the speed of life. You know, how can you get the most amount out of this in the shortest period of time? And for some people, that is an hour. For me, it's less. So on the one hand, I think it's wonderful for people who understand how to bullet journal to evolve into these more elaborate states because it's their choice. That's their journey. But it becomes problematic when people think that that's actually the way you should be bullet journaling. And that's kind of part of what I try to help people understand better and provide clarity with that. You know, grow into whatever you want to become, but start with the basics and keep it super simple for at least the first couple of months. Because that's, that's, the system is what's important. It's not about how your book looks like. It's about how it works, like how functional and practical it is in helping you accomplish the things you set out to accomplish.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, I think that's said perfectly. And these are things I want to explore a little bit more for you and even get a little bit more detailed in. We do want to take another quick sponsor break for our good friends at Squarespace. Mr. Hurley, tell us about Squarespace.

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Brad Dowdy: So you talk about seeing, you know, the visual aspects of bullet journaling and the highly detailed stuff on Instagram, Pinterest, things like that. And wondering, you know, are people going to be, you know, turned off by the barrier to entry? And it makes me wonder, do you personally feel like the bullet journal is still yours? Like, has it, do you feel, have any like kind of worries? This has gotten away from the core of what I was trying to do. Do you have any of those kind of thoughts when you're, when you see just some of the work out there? And I just want to be clear, I'm not knocking any of that work. I think it's amazing. And the way that you put it out there is, you know, people have to find their own way. But you kind of hope they understand why they've done this in the first place. Do you think that any of this has gotten away from you or that you're disattached from the bullet journal yourself personally?

Ryder Carroll: Well, I mean, I'm lucky to have an incredibly supportive community. Like, the thought leaders inside the bullet journal community, which there are many of, are very respectful of the fact that I made it. And they always encourage people to go back to the source material. So, A, there's that. And that's, I'm incredibly grateful for. But I'm going to approach this from a different angle. I think that I'd probably be clear to understand. What you see now for the bullet journal, and even when I launched it, is the result of years of getting it wrong. You know what I mean? I got so many things wrong that didn't help, that didn't work, and more importantly, that didn't last. Right? And that's really what you want with any practice or anything you dedicate yourself to. You want to make sure that there's some longevity involved. And to make sure that that longevity is possible, I designed the system in a certain way. You know, I designed it with a certain flexibility and everything in mind. So, for me, what's most important is to maintain the integrity of the system, you know? And that's because I believe it can have a powerful impact in people's lives. You know, I want to be able to set people up for success. And that's the most important thing. You know, it's not about me so much as it is. It's like, I want to make sure that people are able to benefit from all my failures. You know what I mean? And like, that's the whole idea.

Brad Dowdy: I mean, do you think you can control this? I mean, do you try? Or do you just believe in the faith of the community to put forth, hey, here's the founding principles? You know, like, I sometimes wonder if, like, if I was in your shoes and I'm at bed at night, I sometimes feel like I've lost complete control seeing what I see out there.

Ryder Carroll: I mean, at the end of the day, that doesn't concern me as much as people teaching it incorrectly. So, like, I just focus on trying to provide the most amount of value to my community. And that's really my focus. Like, are there people who bullet journal who don't know anything about me? Sure. And that's okay. You know, at the end of the day, I feel confident that the community, you know, has my back as I have theirs. And, like, I feel as long as that remains my focus, that's the best I can do. I mean, we live in a time where information has no limits. So, at some point, everything kind of blurs around the edges. But at the same time, the core has to stay intact. And, like, I keep working for the core. And there are a lot of people who are going to try bullet journal, and they're not going to like it. Or there are going to be a lot of people who start doing, like, very highly illustrated bullet journals, and they're like, this is exhausting. I can't do it. But for those people who are more interested, they can find their way back. And I'm, you know, I keep working on trying to make that path significantly easier for them. And, you know, the community has been incredibly instrumental in allowing me to do that.

Brad Dowdy: Community is key. If we've, Myke and I have discovered anything, I mean, there's nothing better than having a strong community behind anything that you do. As a support system, a sounding board, you know, everything that is involved in that. I think that sounds fantastic.

Brad Dowdy: I did have a couple of more technical business-y questions. I noticed, I don't know, at some point in the past year that the bullet journal name has been trademarked. How did that come about? And can you tell us the reasonings behind that? And if you've had issues with, you know, the borrowing of the name or the name as a generic as opposed to a brand? Sure.

Ryder Carroll: I mean, as soon as I realized there was a potential for a business there, obviously, you know, I cover my bases and create a trademark. Because, again, for me, the most important thing is that I believe in what I teach. And for me, the most important thing is maintain the integrity of that system. And the best way I can do that is protect it from other people just taking it and running with it. And so, in general, I try to make sure that people understand, again, what the source of this information is and to be respectful of that source. And generally speaking, if people aren't, I can just, you know, gently remind them that there are certain limitations on what they can and cannot do. You know, like that. The idea is not to muzzle the community in any way, shape, or form. It's like the opposite of it. But I do take issue with people taking something they don't understand very well and trying to benefit off it as quickly as possible. You know, I've seen people teach it incorrectly or sell things that I wouldn't want to sell because they don't provide value. Or, you know, it's – and those are kind of things I – that's the time that – how can I phrase this properly? I want to make sure that it is always helpful. And I feel that when people try to just piggyback on something that is currently visible, that's probably not their intention.

Brad Dowdy: Is your time or someone close to you's time busy looking for these things? Like, do you have, you know, does this stuff come up naturally? Someone sees something? Or do you have, like, a group or, like, a lawyer on, you know – I don't – I'm not trying to get into the nuts and bolts. But I just see this being an issue that would consume a lot of your time, right?

Ryder Carroll: I mean, it's all of the above. Again, as I said, the community has my back. And a lot of times, they'll bring things to me. It's like, hey, do you know this person is doing this or that person is doing that? And, like, a lot of times, these people happen to also be dissatisfied customers of whatever, you know, they found out. It's like, oh, this – you know, so it's kind of – it's self-sustaining and self-supportive, if you will. It's really the best of what a community can be. But, yeah, I mean, I definitely am careful to protect what I've built, you know. Yes.

Brad Dowdy: Is there a dot in your personal bullet journal that says, okay, send out cease and desist today?

Brad Dowdy: Unfortunately, sure.

Brad Dowdy: Sorry. I had to do it. No, absolutely. But, yeah, no, I'm concerned about that, right? I mean, like, the reason why I love talking to you is because, like, you're open and honest about these things. And this is stuff I'm generally curious about, even though it's not necessarily, hey, let's talk about bullet journaling today. The business of the things that we're involved in, you know, myself, Myke, you, it all kind of ties in together. And there's lots of crossover between the communities. And I find it, like you said, the speed at which the bullet journaling has taken off has just been crazy. And I imagine, you know, that's a, you know, a very, as wonderful as it is, it's not without its difficulties and hardships. Absolutely.

Ryder Carroll: And that's something I'm willing to take on. You know what I mean? I mean, like, I believe in this. And sure, there are always challenges with everything, especially something that grows this fast and this big. And that's what I learn about now. You know, I mean, for me, the important thing is to make people understand that the bullet journal becomes whatever they want it to be and it is theirs. Yep. But at the same time, it's not theirs to sell.

Brad Dowdy: Right. Exactly. Exactly.

Ryder Carroll: Yeah. It's a fine line because you want to encourage the community to share as much as possible because that was the whole idea. It's like I'm sharing something that helped me. And like 99.9% of people share things that helped them. And that's wonderful. And I encourage that as much as possible. It's just like the 0.001% that are sharing it for very different reasons. That's where I have to be careful, you know, and I have to make sure. And more importantly, also, I have to make sure that people don't think that this is something that I wasn't involved with. You know, they... Sure. And that's important. Again, it's the integrity of a system that has worked for me. That is what I try to protect.

Bujo Term

Brad Dowdy: So, on a lighter note, how do you feel about the term Bujo? And how many times a day do you say it?

Ryder Carroll: It was interesting because, like, Bujo was something that I had used beforehand just, like, very quickly to write things down. Because I used... As you know, I used very short-form notation to write things down. But then all of a sudden, it was, like, also in the community. I was like, wow, that was kind of interesting thought transfer. Because, you know, I didn't use the term publicly often.

Brad Dowdy: Well, you don't want to say that out loud?

Ryder Carroll: Well, it wasn't that. I mean, for me, again, from user experience perspective, like, I always try to articulate myself for those who know nothing about it. So, if they see Bujo, that means nothing. But at least bullet journal, like, you can start with something. Like, it has something to do with journaling and probably something to do with bullets. Like, you know, so those are very, like, specific choices that I make in how I teach it. But when I say Bujo this, Bujo that, people, you know, like, who show up for the first time, like, hey, I got nothing. You know, so I tend to use the term a lot more with things that are, like, you know, like the bullet journal notebook. I usually refer to that as the Bujo notebook. Or when I'm talking to community members, I'll use the term Bujo. I mean, it's almost like a term of endearment at this point. And again, you know, it's how can I not love that?

Brad Dowdy: Right. Well, let's talk about the Bujo app, the bullet journal companion app. You know, if you're not busy enough, you decided that, hey, there should be some type of companion app for, you know, people's mobile devices. And I was curious when I didn't see anything about this until, like, the day it launched. And then I was like, well, why am I going to have a digital bullet journal on my phone? And as it turns out, it's not that at all, right? Right. So tell us about that.

Ryder Carroll: So as much as I love paper, there are things that I can't do. And I think the number one request that I was getting from people is, like, please just sell, like, a tiny booklet or a guide that I can just quickly access for referencing the different methodologies and templates inside the notebook. So the notebook actually addresses that because it already has instructions. And I don't have instructions. But there's a very large part of the community that doesn't use my notebook. So I wanted to figure out a way to get this into their hands in a way that was as simple as possible. And that's kind of where the idea of the companion was born because, you know, if you have an iPhone, then you will have access to the guide. You know, you have access to all the things that are available on the website pretty much. And that was the idea. Sometimes you don't have your notebook with you. You're not carrying it with you. But you're thinking about it. So how can I also create something that I can easily update? And that's why I decided to choose a digital format because if I change the way I talk about it and, like, you know, language is constantly changing on the site subtly, but just to tighten it up. Like, I push that out into the app now so people, like, will always benefit from the most up-to-date information. But being a product designer, I felt like we could do a little bit better. You know, people are like, I would be happy to pay for, you know, some guide to download something, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, okay, fine. So let's check that box. Here's something you can have. But then in addition to that, I thought one thing that's always been really interesting to me is, like, I'm not an analog guy. Like, I'm very 50-50. Like, for me, it's not about digital or analog. It's about the tools. And it's about how well they help me perform, right? So I don't really draw a line in any way. And as much as I love my notebook, there are some things that I can't do. Like, for example, it can't remind me to check in with it. Right. And so that was a really interesting concept. Like, how do I bridge the analog with the digital? And that's kind of where the idea of a, like, larger bullet journal companion came up. It's not a replacement for your bullet journal. It's actually an extension of your notebook. So one of the first features that we launched was for reflection, essentially, which would allow you to set a timer twice a day and then another timer for the weekend to help you reflect on your notebook. So in addition to actually having your notebook on your day all day and just writing down whatever comes to mind, one really important part about the practice of bullet journaling is spending a little bit of time in the morning and in the evening. How much is up to you to review the things that you're either about to write down or the things that you have written down throughout the day? Again, a moment for you to check in with yourself. Like, for me, the bullet journal is, like, very much a capture device. I just, something's in my head. It goes on the page. What I do with it later is part of, like, my reflection. Sometimes I'm like, you know what? This is irrelevant. Like, I don't need to do this or I don't want to do this or somebody else needs to do this. But I feel like we don't really spend the time as much as we should or we don't have the time built into our day to remember to do that. And a notebook can't make a sound. So it's like, well, the notebook could do that. And you can see how often you're reflected in the app itself. I mean, it's a very basic feature. Like, the whole app is designed, again, to be invisible. Like, less features, less features, less features. There are more features rolling out, but a lot of that is based on the feedback that we're getting. Like, for me, it was about what is the minimum amount of features I can add that provide value and that work, like, that are bulletproof. Like, this is also very much in my wheelhouse. And the app reflects that. Like, you can even, there's not a lot in the app, and that's on purpose. It just extends what you should be doing in the notebook. It's not a replacement for. And that was a really fun challenge to work on. And, you know, again, it's not for everyone, but for those who need it, it's there. It's just an additional resource.

Brad Dowdy: Well, I mean, it's, I think you did it exactly right. And even in the title of it, it's the companion, right? It's not a bullet journal app. It's a companion app. It's to help you work on everything else, you know, outside of the app. And I think that's great. So I want to hit on a few more, maybe tips and tricks, a couple more questions before we let you go. And, you know, talk about how I've gotten back into bullet journaling, what I'm doing, and how I'm using it just recently, and why I've picked it back up again. Before we do that, I know Myke really wants to talk about our good friends at Mack Weldon.

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Bullet Journal Company

Brad Dowdy: So, Ryder, how much has the Bullet Journal as a whole, as a company, taken over your life? Is this your full-time job now? Do you have people working for you? How is the whole Bullet Journal organization, if you will, set up these days?

Ryder Carroll: Sure, yeah. Bullet Journal has become my full-time occupation, which is, you know, I can't tell you how excited I am about that. And in a large part, it's because it's due to Bullet Journaling.

Ryder Carroll: I'm just, like, tickled by it. It's, you know, a lot about Bullet Journaling, if not everything, is about intentional living and doing these things. And it just, it works. You know, and I love being able to teach something that I have firsthand experience with over and over again. So that's really exciting.

Ryder Carroll: Yeah, so we sell the notebook and we have the app now. And I have somebody helping me with customer service for the notebooks. And then also, I have somebody helping me with social media as well. Actually, one of the preeminent Bullet Journalists. Again, the community, always stepping up. Kim from Tiny Ray of Sunshine. She's been helping me. Yeah, she's been helping me. And she's just been fantastic to work with. You know, it's, again, such a shiny example of the community giving back. You just constantly keep being exposed to these incredibly wonderful people, you know, who just want to help others. And that's really, it's just an incredibly rare place. You know, it's so strange. Because on the one hand, we have a community that's bonded by an analog practice. Now, on the other hand, they've become a community online. And it's a rare community because, you know, the online space can be, like, such a toxic place. But what I love about my community is that, like, people, just by the very nature of a journal, like, have to open up and expose themselves. And rather than people, like, lunging at their throat, they find ways to support each other. And that's really, I think, of all the things that I've accomplished, like, that's really what I'm most proud of. It's, like, trying, you know, creating a space where people can help each other in whatever way is needed, you know. And that's really kind of what I'm focusing on now.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, that's fantastic. And I'm assuming your own personal Bullet Journal is helping you get there, right? Can you give us a couple of tips or tricks on how you're using your own Bullet Journal these days and what you're finding? You know, as things change in your life now that you've gone from a day job and Bullet Journal on the side to Bullet Journal full time, I'm sure your system's changed, right? I mean, that's what I'm finding. I have different needs as my life change and the Bullet Journal's adaptable to that. How has that helped you out with what you're working on now?

Ryder Carroll: Yeah. Yeah.

Ryder Carroll: So, this year has been incredibly intense for me, both good and bad. And one thing that I have changed my own practice, and just disclaimer, not in the system as a whole, but, like, what I'm using, what I'm doing currently. You know, it's the thing I have to be careful of because if I do something, people are like, oh, now it's different. It's like, no, this is the season of this. You know, like, this is the season of me trying this out. So, one thing that I've been doing a lot more is long-form, like, journaling, actually, writing out what's going on in my head. And that's been incredibly helpful just to kind of keep a clear mind. It also helps me be present with my thoughts rather than just constantly moving on to the next thing and moving on to the next thing. As I mentioned before, you know, like, with the growth, sometimes when a lot happens in a short period of time, it all just becomes a blur. And so, actually, long-form journaling is something that I add in addition to. So, like, throughout the day, I'll just capture things really quickly the same way that you see it everywhere, you know, short-form notation. And at the end of the day, I kind of just give myself a moment. And I'll spend, like, 15 minutes just writing about either an event in the day that I couldn't really work out or something that really did work out or, more importantly, something that really didn't work out. And why didn't it work out? Like, how could have I been better? And, you know, could my attitude have been better? Or am I, in fact, understanding this correctly? Or am I just getting ahead of myself? You know, kind of having a conversation with myself. It's really interesting to just, like, kind of write free form and then read it back to yourself. You're like, oh, okay. You know, it's like thoughts can be like trying to hold on to water. And sometimes, like, seeing them on paper allows you to really, like, confront what you're thinking sometimes. And I found that to be helpful. Another thing that I've introduced into my own practice, which is something that's kind of stuck, is the top three things I write down. Like, literally, I put in the date for my daily log. And then I put in one, two, three. And then throughout the day, I'll write down three things that I'm grateful for. And that's a tremendously difficult practice I've found. You know, people talk about gratitude a lot. But actually conducting that practice on an ongoing basis, you know, like, you start running out of things to be grateful for, you know. Or, like, the superficial things. Like, I'm healthy, you know. Right. Which are incredibly important, don't get me wrong. And I don't want to take away from that. But, like, you can't write that down every day. But what it does make you do, it forces you to look for things to be grateful for. And it's such a simple act, you know. And sometimes I don't get all three on particularly dark days. But, you know, other times I'm just like, wow. You know, you just find some hope. You always find some hope. And it's a, you can't be grateful for everything. But you can be grateful in most moments for something, you know. And that's something that I feel like is important. Especially because it's so easy to be angry and dissatisfied and all these things. And, like, there's a place for that. But, you know, it's much harder to love things than it is to hate things. And that's helped me, you know, be more optimistic, honestly. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Brad Dowdy: I mean, that's what I'm finding out, you know, just listening to you say that. You've, you know, made that a part of your system. And that works for you and works for Ryder. It's great to hear how other people use it. Because maybe you could find out what works best for me. You know, like, I just restarted trying to do bullet journal. Because I've found myself getting lost in the busyness of my day-to-day. And, you know, trying to find the best way to start tracking everything. And just having reminders. And, you know, I think it's important, like you've mentioned a couple of times. At a minimum, you do need to commit some amount of minutes in the morning. And some amount of minutes in the evening to process everything. You know, I think that's a super important thing. And then adding in extras like your journaling. Or your, you know, putting your three things you're grateful for every day. I think that's why a system like this resonates with so many people. Because you really can personalize everything about the bullet journal. Even though, at its core, it's got some very basic steps that you should follow. So, I think that's fantastic. So, what the people want to know before we let you out is, what pen do you use to write in your bullet journal?

Ryder Carroll: Well, I'm glad that you asked. I've actually, like, in my previous interviews, I always say I just write with whatever's there. Because I pay too much attention to really fancy pens. But I've changed my mind on that.

Brad Dowdy: One of us.

Ryder Carroll: One of us. Well, it's interesting. So, I, this is probably a huge taboo. But I actually really enjoy, so this is kind of a conversation. I really enjoy writing with big pens. It's, like, very basic because they have the same feeling as pencil. But, but, I can't read my own handwriting because I write too fast. And, like, this is part of, like, my own practice, my own learning. And I have found that I write much slower and much more precisely and much more thoughtfully when I use a fine liner pen. And so, I just went out recently in a fit because I couldn't read something that was super important to me. So, I went out to a store. I'm like, okay, I have to solve this problem immediately. And I went out and bought, like, a fistful of different types of fine point, fine line markers, I guess. So, recently, I've been using the Prismacolor Premier. Yeah. In 03. And that's been great. You know, I've used a lot of different ones. And, you know, this is, this is the one I'm trying out now. But, yeah, the slower I write, the better. It's weird. You know, it forces me to use less words. And the words that I do use are a lot more intentional. So, in this case, slowing down allowed me to, you know, be much more focused.

Fine Liners

Brad Dowdy: Fine liners are awesome. That's some of my favorite writing pens. Just, if for some reason it makes my handwriting look better because they have a more defined edge on the pen than, say, anything with a ball in the tip, you get a more rounded edge, of course. And, you know, I generally like the black inks of any fine liner, especially in, like, a bullet journal or any type of system like that. I think it's really fantastic. I'm using fountain pens in mine. And one day, maybe we'll get you to dabble in fountain pens. We'll have to send you something to check out on that. And you can get into that. Absolutely.

Ryder Carroll: I mean, I used to play around with fountain pens. My father's a huge fan. He has dozens. And, yeah, I used to use them to practice calligraphy. So, I got different kinds of nibs that had, like, cut tips. I don't know what the actual term is. I apologize. But, yeah, I always loved doing that. But, you know, spending, like, 15 minutes drawing, like, an F. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Brad Dowdy: And that's what a lot of people do these days. Oh, it's wonderful.

Ryder Carroll: It's a great way to spend some time.

Brad Dowdy: It is. It is. It's very meditative, like everything else we do, like, with our analog tools. That's why we like them. It takes us to a different place and gives us a sense of calm. And I think we can kind of all relate to that. Well, Ryder, I know your time is valuable. And I appreciate you spending some of that with us today. I know the listeners really appreciate everything that you've done with the Bullet Journal. And I know we do, too. And we really appreciate you sharing the story and some of the knowledge you have on this. And just thank you so much for coming on and sharing that with us today.

Ryder Carroll: Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. And where can, if people want to go read more, find you, talk to you online, what's the best places for them to do that?

Ryder Carroll: Well, for everything Bullet Journal, it's bulletjournal.com. Same thing on Instagram, which you can see a wide gamut of different styles, which is great. And that's at Bullet Journal. And then for me personally, it's rydercarroll.com.

Myke Hurley: If you want to find our show notes for this week's episode, you head over to relay.fm slash penaddict slash 255. You can find Brad online at penaddict.com. And he is dowdyism on Twitter and penaddict on Instagram. I am imike, I-M-Y-K-E. Thanks again to our lovely sponsors this week, Harry, Squarespace, and Mac Wilden. But most of all, Ryder, thank you for joining us. This was fascinating to listen to. We're so happy for the success that you've had. And we only wish that it will continue.

Ryder Carroll: Thank you so much.

Myke Hurley: And thanks for listening, everybody. We'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye, guys. Goodbye, guys. Bye.