Editing The Pen Addict 64/transcript (section)

== Pen Comparisons ==


'''Myke Hurley:''' So if I can jump in here, because this actually leads in quite nicely to a point that I see, I've seen a bunch of our friends and listeners mentioned today and yesterday. And I haven't, I haven't played my hand about this yet. So lots of people are mentioning that and, oh, in the video, he's using a Bic pen, you know, how can he, how can he be a pen designer? Look at Karas Customs. Dan was not a pen addict.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' No, not at all.

'''Myke Hurley:''' But designed the Render K, the Retract, the Bolt. Great pens. I don't necessarily think that, let's say that he did design this. Let's say that. I mean, I don't know. Sure. I don't know. But let's say that he did design that. I mean, he's showing renderings. Now, he doesn't need to know a lot about fountain pens. He could have designed the body, right? And then he's sourcing nib parts. Maybe he's tried a few different nibs. I don't think he necessarily, I mean, obviously, it'd be great if he knows. He knows lots about fountain pens, right? Right. But I don't think that he has to. He can just be a product designer. Because Dan is an awesome guy. And the Karas Customs stuff, the Karas Customs stuff is really awesome. But I don't think that, Dan was able to make those pens because he knows how to design great products. And he's learning more and more. And he's becoming, clearly, becoming one of us as time's going on for him. Right. I guess that, you know, I just think that you can be a product designer. And he could maybe be, I don't know. I mean, I'm putting words. I'm giving him help here, really. But he could have had somebody who he knows, who maybe knows a bit about pens and stuff like that that's helped him out. I don't know.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Right. I actually agree with your point 100%. I have no issue with the video showing him using. I think it's a paper mate stick ballpoint to design the pen. I mean, or to, okay, let's temper that. I'm not convinced he designed anything on this pen is my point that I'm eventually going to get to. But he shows him in the video, he's sketching, you know, product designs with a ballpoint pen, you know, just a cheap paper mate. I have zero. I take no issue with that. That's not an issue at all. You know, I would expect anyone who's a designer or anything, you know, to be doing it with a pencil or whatever, just anything they find on any piece of paper they find. I don't take issue with that. At all. Where my questions arise are what did he really, really design on this pen? If you want my, let me just cut to the chase and then we can go from there.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Okay.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' This is my opinion. This is me connecting the dots. This is me making a judgment on something that I don't have, admittedly, don't have the answers to. That I don't have, I don't have the pen in my hands. I haven't had a chance to talk to Morgan yet, although I'm efforting that.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' I am of the opinion that this pen is an off-the-shelf barrel, cap, nib, and converter from one of the large Chinese pen manufacturers.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Okay.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' And that there's no unique design in this pen and that to use the word design in this Kickstarter project is inaccurate.

'''Myke Hurley:''' So I would like to know why you think this.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' So I put a link in the, okay, so before I get to that link, I think this because Morgan cannot answer anything about the design of the pen. He's been asked specifically. It took him days, if not more, to find anything out about the nib of this pen because he marketed it on the page, on the project page, as a German nib. It's a Chinese nib that he finally had to come and put in the fact that it's actually a Chinese nib. One of the readers sent the, one of the backers in the comment section sent an image to one of the nib manufacturers in Germany, Bach, which we've talked about before. They said, not only is this not a German nib, we didn't make it and no other German manufacturer made it.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' And so they had to be a clarification. Morgan cannot answer any design aspects of this pen. He has a pretty picture of like a CAD drawing of a barrel. There's no dimension. It's like a, it's like something scanned in there. Like I could scan in a picture into a 3D renderer and show it on my screen. I'm not saying he didn't. That's why I want to ask him these questions. But my opinion, looking at this, it is so generic and so not unique that I don't believe he designed a single thing on this pen. That doesn't mean there's two different things. That doesn't mean at all that this is going to be a bad pen.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' What it means is I don't think this is a unique design for a pen. I don't think he came up with a brilliant new idea, designed every bit, every speck of this pen and had someone build it for him. I think he went to a manufacturer, picked out the parts, had them put together and the manufacturer is going to manufacture that pen. And that's what I think is going to happen here. And for $37, you know what? That's fine. It's a fair price. I just think it's misrepresented a little bit. You know, no one's going to get killed for $37. It's going to be a fine. It's most likely going to be a fine pen. Most Chinese pen manufacturers are very solid. They're very good. I put a link in the show notes, and I don't know if you've clicked it yet, Myke, to an eBay item.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Yeah, I have.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' What do you think about that pen? So this link I sent, Myke, is by the Shanghai Hero Pen Company. They're based in China. They're the single most well-known and respected Chinese pen manufacturer. They've been around for 80 years. They sell pens. They sell good quality pens. They're known for good designs, and they're very, very cheap. So I sent Myke a link to a pen. What do you think about this pen?

'''Myke Hurley:''' So it's similar.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Let me try and understand something, right? So one of the images in his Kickstarter page is a close-up of the nib, and it says Iridium Point Germany on it, right? Right. But he's now said that it's not a German nib. Right. So it's not the nib then that he's showing in the video?

'''Brad Dowdy:''' No, it is the nib. What the nib is saying is that the tipping on the very tip of the pen is Iridium tipping.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Okay.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' So, but the nib itself is not a German-manufactured nib at all.

'''Myke Hurley:''' I mean, there are similarities, but I wouldn't say, like, I'm not saying that you're saying this, but the way that they look to me, they don't look like they're the same body.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' I'm not saying this is an identical match to that pen. So I'm showing Myke a Hero pen. It's called the 369 Silver Matte Chrome Steel Fine Nib Fountain Pen. I'm not at all saying this is the exact same pen. I'm saying, in general, it looks the same. I mean, if you had these two pens on the shelf, they're going to look next to each other. They're going to look different physically, but in general, you know, dimensions look the same, nib looks the same, section looks the same, cap looks the same, clip looks the same. How much is this pen that I just sent you the link for?

'''Myke Hurley:''' $399.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' $3.99. $3.99. This is from the single largest Chinese pen manufacturer there is. The single most respected Chinese pen manufacturer there is.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Lots of people use a lot of Hero fountain pens. This pen looks... I'm going to say it would be... If you can put these two pens together, I think they're going to be in the 75th percentile match.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Is that fair? Sure.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Just to the eye test.

'''Myke Hurley:''' I mean, yeah, sure, but I think that...

'''Brad Dowdy:''' So then this pen is $3.99.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Yes, it is. I'm really not sure, Brad. I'm really not sure. Because I feel like you could do this to so many pens. Like, I'm not saying that this guy has created this thing from scratch, right? But I feel like there are so many pens that you could put next to that one and be like, it's the same, like, so many Parker pens and, like, Mont Blanc pens and all sorts. And a couple of the things that made me... Right. So I'll tell you, there are two things in this video.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Let me make one point before you go. Okay, go on. The problem is he's saying he designed this pen.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Yeah, I mean, that's interesting. I don't really know how I feel about that. Because he's not just saying it, he's showing it. Right. He has CAD designs here.

'''Myke Hurley:''' So I'm not saying that they're his. I'm just saying he's showing that he has done that. Right. All right, so go ahead. The video, there are three things, actually, that made me buy this. Right towards the start, he's writing on a postcard. And the way that the ink is being distributed and the line that it's drawing looks like the sort of line that I would like. And it looks like the sort of style of nib that I enjoy. Right. It looks smooth. It looks like there's quite a thick ink being laid down. That looks like how I would like a pen to be. Right. Yep. I think the Chrome model is beautiful, whether it's a Chinese knockoff or not.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Let's not use the term knockoff. There's a differentiation. There's Chinese pens and there's knockoff pens. Knockoff pens are bad. Chinese pens are completely fine.

'''Myke Hurley:''' I was more just poking fun at you.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yes. Yeah. Because I get caught up. I try to make a point of saying that because I get caught up using that term interchangeably and that is way unfair. That's an unfair comparison. And I'm the one guilty of that, not you. You're doing that, making fun of me. It's not a knockoff by any means.

'''Myke Hurley:''' It's manufactured by a large Chinese organization who manufactures at scale for very cheap. Yes. That's what it actually is. Also, right at the end of the video, he puts the cap on the pen and it looks like there is a nice thunk.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Mm-hmm. He actually talks about that, saying that there is a nice feel to it.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Those are three things that if Twisby put their name on this and it looked like this, I'll buy it. Mm-hmm. Right? Right. So I really don't know. I do not know because, and I'll tell you why, there is lots of conjecture.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Mm-hmm.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Nobody can prove anything.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Nope.

'''Myke Hurley:''' There are only so many designs you can make of a pen. Mm-hmm. You know? Right. For a pen to be functional, they kind of do, to a point, look similar. Fountain pens of this ilk. I say you could take it into a Mont Blanc shop and put it in one of the cases and it'd probably look as Mont Blanc because the next one's sitting next to it, right?

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Right.

'''Myke Hurley:''' And I don't think people would be like, hang on, that's a Chinese pen. Right. It costs $3.99. Like, I don't necessarily think that would happen. I think if you took that one that you sent to me on eBay, it would. But I think this looks nice to me, what he's showing here.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' I agree. I think anyone who backs this pen is going to get a nice pen.

'''Myke Hurley:''' But you just wonder if it's overpriced.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yeah. And I wonder about the sourcing. And I really wonder about the word design being used throughout the project. So what did you... Render... The guys at Keras Customs design a pen. Yeah.

'''Myke Hurley:''' I wasn't using them.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' The guys at Big Eye Design design a pen. The guys at Bolt's Pen design a pen. I don't believe the Visionaire was designed from scratch.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Okay.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Like, he's representing.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Oh, this is such a difficult thing for me.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' But I... On the other hand, the flip side of this is, for $37, people are going to get a completely fine pen. There's not going to be anything wrong with this pen when you get it. You're going to like it. You're going to enjoy it. Actually, the writing samples that you were talking about that he did were very impressive. I thought it looked good. I was like, man, that's going to sell me on the pen. It's fine.

'''Myke Hurley:''' My $37 could be better put elsewhere. Exactly. But the other $246,590 could be fine. But me, with what I know, could be different. Right. Right. So, I don't know. I don't know what to do. I would like to... I feel like this is going to be around for a couple of weeks that we're going to be talking about this. Because I can cancel. I've got 34 days to cancel.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Right. Right. And I'm not trying to get anyone to cancel. I mean, I think... I just think there's questions around it. One of the biggest things... Another topic... Another point in Morgan's... I don't... I think it was in the main project page, not in the comment section. He discusses how low his margin is. Did you hear that? My text go off?

'''Myke Hurley:''' Yeah. Your text is the email send nice.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yeah. So, that's Morgan.

'''Myke Hurley:''' What happened to R2-D2?

'''Brad Dowdy:''' I took that off because that was a little bit annoying at work.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Oh, he's just text you now?

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Oh, Morgan's just texting me while we're recording. Man, this is an epic link test. Text. I don't want to read it out loud without... Because you don't know what it says. Without reading it first. Without reading it first. So, you read it.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Maybe I'll vamp for a moment. I'll give people an update. So, I mentioned that I have a Kickstarter pen, like I've mentioned for weeks, called The Ojohto. They contacted me and told me that it's on the way. They have very good Twitter support, actually. Me and Stuart Hasley were talking about it. Because his has arrived and he's very happy, actually, with his. And I said that mine hadn't because they... I mean, to their credit, the reason that they delayed it was because they felt like the silver pen that I had bought, that the anodization, I think, it wasn't up to their standards. So, they shipped it back and got them anodized again, which I'm sure has done at cost. So, I'm really excited. He... Stuart loves his. So, I'm really excited to get mine. So, I hope for next week's episode, I should have that pen that I've been talking about for many, many, many, many weeks now. Months, even. So, that'll be fun. So, I'll be receiving a Kickstarter award there. I'm excited to try it out. So, we'll see.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' All right. So, I scanned through this. I'm not going to read it all.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' It doesn't say too much. But he's... He's not making this easy on me. Because I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. And I do. I think...

'''Brad Dowdy:''' This is me reading between the lines. I think this has gotten out of hand. I think this is gone.

'''Myke Hurley:''' A quarter of a million dollars is out of hand. Yeah. That's out of hand. And he only put this up. I think he's freaking out. He put this up for sale.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Like... See, he did a 60-day Kickstarter and it's been up for a month. See, the fact that he did a 60-day Kickstarter, because usually people do it for 30 days, probably says that he wasn't confident he was going to hit this. Right. But go on.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' So, let me... I'm just going to read a piece of this that goes along with some of what I'm saying.

'''Myke Hurley:''' You shouldn't read the whole thing, because he has no idea what's happening right now. No.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' And I don't want to... I'm not going to throw him under the bus without talking to him. He probably doesn't even know that this show exists. Yeah. In general, he doesn't say anything in this text that's, you know, ooh, ah, wow, or anything. But he does give some insight on his thought process. And this is the challenge that I'm having with how this pen's represented. He says, when I start thinking about making a pen, I looked at it as what I would like, not on specific technical data, but as look and feel. That's the point I have some hard time explaining to some. To an expert like you, my pen is certainly not of any particular interest, because it does not have such a pedigree or such and such part. You know, even if I were to develop a pen in collaboration with me, being Brad, I'm sure someone would find something to say about it. And he's exactly right. But this again... And he says, so again, I wanted a nice pen that writes well with a certain look and shape and a certain sound when you close it and a certain weight, and that's the way I approach it. Then he goes on, yes, it'll be made in China. And I have zero issue with it being made in China. That's not my argument at all.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' All right. So that's all I'm going to read of this text. It goes on and on and on and on. And I'm going to talk to him some more. And we'll probably follow up on this next week and see if I can get some answers to the questions. But that goes back to my theory. I think that plays into my theory that he didn't design this pen from scratch. He didn't come up with the specs and the shapes and the dimensions and the cuts and anything on this pen is my speculation. So that's my issue. And he talks about one of the point I was getting to before my text went off was that he talks about how tight in the on the project page in one of the sections. I'm pretty sure it's on the project page and not in the comments.

'''Myke Hurley:''' So that again, you cut out. Did you say the first part?

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Sure, sure, sure. He talks about how tight his margins are for this pen.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Right.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Pretty openly. I have a hard time believing that until I talk to him. Once I talk to him, maybe my assumptions will change. And I don't want to butcher the guy. I mean, I haven't talked to him yet. I'm trying to.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Hey, tell him if you'll come on the show.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yeah, I offered for him to come on the show. Believe me, I did. He didn't respond to that particular question. No, I can't imagine he'd want to. He said he would call me on the phone and he would talk about it.

'''Myke Hurley:''' He probably would. I mean, if I was him, I wouldn't want to go on a podcast and be outnumbered.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' I know. And I think he's getting, I mean, I feel like I'm unfairly raking him over the coals, but I'm really just trying to get some answer to questions that fountain pen people want to know. So this got out of hand, I think, because it started as, you know, it basically started as, as, you know, Johnny Anypen, right? It was just a basic pen that beginners were going to use and love. And again, I'm going to say it, if I say it once, I'm going to say it a thousand times. People who back this project, you're going to get a perfectly fine pen. It's going to be fine. You know, there's no reason to jump out of this project. It's going to be perfectly fine. When, you know, people with more fountain pen experience get into this, they look at it and they see that this is just like any other pen that any other Chinese manufacturer, and how or bear banks, and they make them for $5 or $10. You know, we've never gotten into the list of questions I sent him. Do you want me to go over that real quick?

'''Myke Hurley:''' I would like you to do that, yeah.