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The Pen Addict Podcast Transcript
Episode: 659
Title: We Love This Stuff
Release Date: April 2nd, 2025
Hosts: Brad Dowdy

Myke Hurley

Guests: Anabelle Hiller
Additional Information
Official page: Episode 659
Audio File: Audio Episode 659
Podcast page: The Pen Addict 659
Length: 6565 min <br />1.083 h <br /> minutes
Previous Transcript Next Transcript


  • From Relay, this is The Pen Addict, episode number 659. Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace and Enigma Stationery. My name is Brad Dowdy, and today I'm joined by Annabelle Hiller from, well, maybe we'll let Annabelle tell us where exactly she's from now, because things might have changed since we talked last. How's it going, Annabelle?
  • I'm so good. Thank you for having me. Brad Dowdy from The Pen Addict.
  • Thank you for being here. Long time no see. We just, what, we saw each other in California six weeks ago? Maybe two months. Almost two months, yeah.
  • Hopefully we're going to see each other later this year. That is always a point of contention between the two of us and our communications.

Stationery life and work changes[edit]

  • You just love avoiding me, but that's okay. I'll get over it one day. And you love pointing out that I'm avoiding you. So, it's the feelings mutual here. So, we're going to talk about some changes in your stationery life and work as we go through this episode. Like I've mentioned in these past few episodes without Myke, there's a couple of little newsy bits I want to get in on the record, on the Pen Addict record, if you will, before we get deep into the topic. But first, I got to know. And all the listeners have to know, honestly, Annabelle, how's the F1 season going for you so far?
  • Oh, phenomenal. Yeah. I'm thrilled. I'm a big McLaren fangirl, I guess. And mostly Oscar, but I'll accept Orlando win here and there as well. And they are doing phenomenal. And Williams, sorry, Alex is also like up there with my favorite drivers. And Williams seems to be doing really, really well. So, I'm thrilled. I don't care about anyone else. Yeah, we line up pretty, you know, equally in our fandom. Like I definitely pull for McLaren more than most. I don't like really dislike anyone. I like to joke about a few drivers and, you know, a few teams. But, you know, generally, it's a pretty good grid, pretty good crew. But I do like to see McLaren up at the top early. And, you know, maybe we'll see some excitement the remainder of the year. It's always such a long season. Like what happened at the beginning of last season was completely different from how it ended. And we're all like just, you know, kind of thinking it was going to go one way. And, you know, who knows what happens this year, right? Yeah. Nobody thought that McLaren was actually going to achieve anything. And then they won the constructors. So, who knows what's going to happen now that also, okay, this is not an F1 podcast, but it could be. Who knows what happens with Liam gone back to, what are they called now? Abbey? Racing Bulls, yeah.
  • Yes. Yeah. Whatever. And Yuki going to Red Bull after years and years and years of people kind of wanting him there and him just not getting it for some reason. So that shift, it's, I'm on the edge of my seat. Yeah. It's funny how, you know, I know a lot of people are ready for us to get into the pen stuff and we will, we won't take too much of your time. But it's crazy to me as a relatively new F1 fan, say five years at the most, to see. Pretty much since the last time we talked on this podcast. Yeah. That's probably right. I was probably like within my first year or so. Yeah. Oh, I didn't pull up the old episode. That reminds me. I need to make a note. I should have gone and listened to that. I think you literally started watching after, after we talked. Okay. And I went on and on about how exciting F1 is. Well, I am beyond hooked in whatever amount of timeframe that is. So I will go, I'll make it to go, to go listen to that. Yeah. It's probably like my number one favorite sport to watch. And I've always been like a, a baseball fan. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's taken over. So just because what I was going to say is this new, the news cycle in F1 is so intense and it's fascinating. Like every day you wake up, it seems like some, something weird's going on. So. Yeah. Yeah. So to bring this back into stationery into, into what, what we're actually here for, are you doing your F1 season journal this year? Yes, but I haven't yet. Okay. And we'll talk about why, but, but it's definitely going to happen. I promise. Fair enough. And that's actually something. And when we get to it, like you can like retroactively like build this thing. Right. And it's, it's, and I won't say it's easy to do because I've seen it and it's really intense and awesome, but you can, you have all the information, you have all the data. Yeah. And yeah, I have a virtual version of it. I have a spreadsheet. I have a few spreadsheets that where I do track everything and then I'll just make it analog and pretty and you know, all of that. But I, I definitely already do it. I already keep up with everything that needs to be followed to make it happen for sure. Gotcha. So you'll actually just move it really from digital to analog. Okay, cool. I can't wait. I can't wait to talk about that. I have to talk about one product that it could be used for someone's F1 journal. And I, I literally have no expectation of you carrying one iota about the new field, the new field notes release. That's kind of the, that's kind of the, that's kind of the feedback I expected to just giggle at me real quick, but I wanted to mention this one because that's, it's been a whole thing for Myke and I, especially in the early years of the podcast about how like hyped up, we'd get up for the new field notes release. And now, you know, we might talk about one or two a year. I wanted to bring this one up. It's called the Chicago look edition. And it kind of checked all my boxes as far as a notebook design and storytelling apparatus to where they've, they've worked with the Beverly sign company to take some of like their art and design, you know, aesthetic and transfer it into a field notes. And they made a notebook, which I, whenever they don't do their standard three and a half by five inch notebook size, I always think it's funny because people get mad about it. And this one's an inch. I know. Trust me. As soon as I said, uh, the, the size of this new one is six inches by eight inches. We were going to have the talk, right? No, no, no, no. Because I'm on your side. Like, what are we doing here? But this, this one, six, six inches by eight inches for this one. And so I wrote down some, uh, America measurements, uh, just to, uh, relate to everyone who might be, uh, listening to the show. So do you, if I told you, uh, about this, the classic mead composition notebook, are you familiar with this product?
  • What composition? Mead composition. Yeah. The mead composition notebook. So you're not familiar with this product. No. So you might have. I feel like a fraud now. Yeah. I'll have to send you a link or you can look it up, but I'll send you a picture of it, but it's this classic American notebook that it's really kind of a school notebook. Right. So, uh, literally like composition writing in your English class, you'd have these notebooks and it's like a 70 page, like one signature, like chunky binding notebook that was inexpensive and just made for writing. And that was a classic popular dimension. And this is where we just completely go off the rails here. That notebook is seven and a half inches by nine and three quarter inches. It's absolutely meaningless what these dimensions are. And it drives me up the wall. But I was thinking that this new, uh, Chicago look notebook was going to be close to the classic mead composition notebook. Um, but the classic, uh, mead. Yeah. Uh, so it's like a, it's like a, a four and a half. I'm guessing. So if we can make that up right here, right now, but we are very pro international, uh, paper standards, especially on this podcast with you. Uh, and especially with my stance on this. Yeah. No, my, my stance is very strong. I've, I've, I've loosened, I've loosened my stance over the years. It was a losing, it was a losing battle given all the notebook products that I review and come across and things like that. I want to test and enjoy them, but you know, it's a whole thing. So do you have a favorite international notebook size that you prefer? I, yeah, I think generally I will, for everyday stuff, I will go with ISO A5. Yeah. For sure. Um, I feel like I, I feel like I should dabble in the Bs more. Yeah. I feel like I could use that width. Yeah. People yell B6 all the time when I, when I talk about different notebooks and things. So yeah. Yeah. But I think growing up, everything was either A4 or A5. And so who am I to complain about it? And recently on the internet, I can't tell you who and how, somebody explained how that's, how A4 came to be anyway. Mm-hmm. And then it's, well, because the whole point, right, is the ratio that you can fold it in your next size. But the original one would be, the ratio would be exactly root two. Mm. And so the bigger and bigger you went, uh, it would be really easy to do the math and there would be like a perfect square meter and then perfect two square meters and four and eight. You know, it's, it's awesome. Yeah. Shocking how, shocking how math and science work. Wow. Crazy. We should build some. We should build some paper. That makes sense. All right. Well, you, you've set me perfectly up to transition into, but let, let, let's talk with Annabelle for a while. And we've probably covered some of these questions before publicly, but you know, it's been, as you, uh, so rudely mentioned how long it's been since I last met you on the show. So we've got some new listeners. I don't mean to call you out, but that's pretty boring. There's not, there wasn't lots to talk about. I think that, I think that might literally be a line on your job description. Like of all the things you do, like one of the lot of ends would be to call Brad out. I feel, I feel confident in, in that.
  • I think I call everybody out. Yeah, true, true. Yeah. Maybe I should have a podcast. You should. Just calling people out. That's right. Annabelle will call you out. Um, so I want to call you, call you out and, and rewind back to probably something we've discussed already, but I want to, I want to, you know, I like to lay the groundwork for the kind of the long story we're going to tell during this podcast about where you're at now in your stationery journey. So I need to know how it started. Like, what were your first stationery memories growing up?
  • My first stationery memories growing up. Um, I remember, no, that's not it. I'm teasing, I'm teasing, uh, Annabelle because I'm using a Lamy ABC right now, which we'll get into later. And I was not, that was not my first fountain pen. Shockingly. Yeah. So I always loved the Austrian version of staples. I guess it would be called Libro, which is Latin for I read.
  • Um, and that was, it's just a stationery store where every kid, when the, the beginning of the year, the teachers would send a list of all the exact notebooks that we needed. So what size, what margin, um, yada, yada, yada. I loved, I always loved going there. I think maybe for the potential of it all, like who knows what we're going to learn? Who knows what could be drawn or what could be captured? So I always loved it. And I love different sharpeners and erasers and, and pens. And I got my first fountain pen when I was seven, I think, um, because we had to use a fountain pen when we started writing cursive.
  • And my first fountain pen was in fact a Pelican Pelicano Junior P, this is 65, maybe? That sounds about right. Yeah. I think it was a very ugly thing. It was, it was blue with a big white cap, um, and like a rubbery grip that I, I remember holding it way too tight. So the, the, the texture of the rubber would like leave an impression in my finger.
  • And I'd always stuck with fountain pens ever since then. Uh, most kids would then switch over to BIC or any other kind of, you know, bull point. But I never, cause I'm left-handed and I'm, I don't know, I got quite fatigued with it cause you had to apply so much pressure and you would press through the paper. And I never liked that. So I just always stuck with, with my Pelican pen. And then maybe I graduated to a slightly nicer Pelican Junior later. Uh, and always use Pelican for one Royal Blue. Oh yeah. Cause I didn't, I didn't know that there was anything else out there. Yeah. That, that, yeah. And I think I realized that the main felt tip pens that were used were the Stabilo ones. Okay. Yeah. Classic. Mm-hmm. I'm, I'm thinking now and I'm, I'm certainly going to be incorrect in some assumptions, but being left-handed and learning how to use a fountain pen at a young age, um, like that had to be like pretty beneficial. I'm, I'm guessing in just like your handwriting style and you're like, you're talking about the fatigue and how other pens work for you and why you stuck with a fountain pen. I've never really kind of put it together that, well, maybe it's because that's how you were, you were taught. And like, you know, lefties generally have a tougher time writing a lot of times than, than righties for a litany of issues. Like the world's against them in like paper and pens, like, and, huh, that's, you know, maybe that's something that just kind of like, came through at a young age and kind of stuck.
  • I, I think so, but I think it was harder for my teacher than for me because she kept, she was very insistent that we use a good grip and that we hold the pen properly. And I just, I just kind of like made things work however they needed to. So I still, I still side write. I don't underwrite, which is, I think what you're supposed to do. Um, and I will do it when I test pens for other people because I have to mimic right-handed people. But I, for myself, I'm, I, I'm a bit of a side writer, sometimes overwriter, but I think in Australia, people were just like equipped for dealing with that because everybody had to write with fountain pens. So notebooks automatically came with a sheet of blotting paper. You open up the notebook and the first page is, is blotting paper. Looking back, I'm really grateful for the teacher that I did have, who so insisted that we hold our pens properly. Hmm. I think, I think it was just kind of set up for success in that regard. Yeah. I'm, I'm making a, making a note to when, when we were definitely gonna talk about nib grinding later and, and how people hold their pens and that, that kind of challenge. Well, we're going to hold that thought for now, but that is a whole discussion I can't wait to get into.
  • I've seen a lot. I've seen a lot. I've seen a lot of things. So you, you kept that fountain pen usage going and when did you start exploring outside of say like the, the Pelican 401 Royal Blue Realm, which, you know, that's, that's what you're picking up at the stationery store, right? The, the next upgraded Pelican and another bottle of Pelican Royal Blue ink. When did it go, when did it go beyond that? So for my 18th birthday, which is a big one, right? That's the, that's when you're an adult and all of that. Um, I asked for a nice pen for my birthday. Um, and explicitly, I like, I did a lot of research as to what that could be. And I looked at nicer pens that are available now, modern pens. And I also looked at vintage pens and it, what they used to be. And so we went to this, um, vintage pen shop in Vienna. It's on the Lerchenfelder Straße, I want to say. If it's still there, if it still exists, I don't know. And I think I've told this story before and I've told this story like lots of times to lots of people, but they, we ended up getting a vintage mumbler from the fifties. Lovely pen. But they said, because I am left-handed, I shouldn't have, I shouldn't get it with the gold nib because I wanted to break it. And so they took out the gold nib and they put in a glass nib, just like the front bit of a glass nib. And they put that in instead.
  • And I was like, cool, you're the professionals. I'll trust you. I'll just get this glass nib mumbler and that's fine.
  • Wow. Yeah. I'm not recalling this story because I'm like really taken aback right now. And like how we would, how we would handle that this day and age would probably not go over so well. It's, it's really funny, especially because I chose this as my profession, right? Right. Like the, the number of like hundreds of thousands of friends that I've like fixed at this point in my life. Um, but, but they wouldn't sell me the gold nib. I didn't make it like, I didn't know any better. And I just fully twisted them and I was like, okay, cool. I have a glass nib now. That's kind of cool. And it looks, it's kind of cool. It's a kind of, it's an interesting combination to have a mumbler body, but then a glass nib that sticks out. That's, it's a very unique look. Do you still have this pen? I have it. I never write with it because it, it's not very good. Uh, it's just kind of blotchy and just, it'll leak, but, but it's fun. But, and that's, it did get me into this rabbit hole of like what kind of pens are out there and how do they work? This was my first piston filler, right? Sure. And so from then on, whenever I saw like antiquity store, I would hop in and see if they had any, any pens laying around. And they would usually like have a cup of just, they didn't know what it was. I didn't know what it was, but it was five euros for a pen. And I was like, okay, cool. I'll, I'll take those three and then take them home and I take them apart. And I tried to figure out how they worked and why they worked. And if they didn't work, why didn't they work? And there were some had sacks in it and some had pistons with cork bits that you needed to replace. And I'd hop into the fountain pen network and be like, Hey, what is this? What do I do about it? Um, and then I tried vintage nibs that way that, you know, somebody had just like tossed it away or like given up or I don't know. I don't know how people think how things end up at antiquity stores, but it ended up there and I was determined to give it life.
  • That's pretty awesome. Like digging kind of right into like the, the vintage and the repair and all the, um, you know, the, the work you need to put into some of these pens, but that seemed just like right up your, your alley from the jump. I guess, I guess it's, I guess it kind of makes sense seeing kind of where your career took you from then. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's just the curiosity of like, how do things work? And also wanting to make things last. I always, I mean, I also just like, like old stuff. And I like to imagine who wrote with this, what could they have possibly written? Where has it been? What could it continue to do? Yeah. Like, cause especially with old nibs, with, with really old nibs, you see, you see how the person held the pen. You really do. If they've written with it a lot and it's kind of worn in a way. And that can be true for these really, really old pens that what if they're 70 years old and somebody wrote with it for 30? You'll see that. Yeah. Cause that was the only pen. And like with most pen people, they have a hundred pens. Those nibs don't tend to get worn that much. Yeah. So Annabelle just called us all out. Like literally all of us listen to you. Yeah. You're welcome. In the, in the modern, modern world, we don't see that. And that's what, like one of those myths that always like, you know, is it a myth whether, you know, you can wear out your nib? But I mean, yeah, technically yes. Because back in the day, like you mentioned, you had one pen and you used it forever and your writing angle is what it is. It's going to change. Right. But like. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's not necessarily a modern problem though, that we're going to run into. Yeah. Yeah. Just not after a week or two weeks of lending your pen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're going to be all right. You're going to be all right. All right.
  • All right. So we need to move into kind of the, kind of the next phase from there. But first let me take a real quick break and talk about one of our sponsors this week. And that's our good friends over at Squarespace. So this episode of the pen addict is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or scaling your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to claim your domain name, showcase your offerings with a professional website, grow your brand and get paid all in one place. So I've been using Squarespace for well over a decade. I like any of their updates on the blogging platform that I use or the shop platform that I use all within Squarespace. They all just happen automatically. They all work flawlessly. Everything is easy to use. It's functional. It gives me exactly what I need and tools to do more if I want it to do more with anything that I have right now. So, you know, if you're looking to put a blog out there of, you know, your writing or your photography or you need a blog for your business, Squarespace is a perfect choice. With Squarespace, you can get discovered fast with integrated SEO tools. Nobody wants to build a beautiful website only for zero people to see it. That's why every Squarespace website is optimized to be indexed with meta descriptions and auto generated site map and more. So more people find your site through search engine results. And you can make smarter business decisions with analytics. Keep track of the stats that matter with intuitive built-in analytics tools. It makes super easy to review your website traffic, learn where to focus engagement, and track revenue from bookings, invoices, or product sales. So head over to squarespace.com slash penaddict for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use the offer code penaddict to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com slash penaddict. Offer code penaddict. To get 10% off your first purchase and show support to the penaddict. Our thanks to Squarespace for the support of this show and all of Relay.

Transition from fountain pens to goldsmithing[edit]

  • All right, Annabelle. This initial love of fountain pens and working with fountain pens turned into goldsmithing. So, and metalsmithing. How did that happen? And so, like, it's pretty clear. Listen to how you talk about, like, your fountain pen journey. How that eventually came into, like, what you really, you know, worked hard for, went to school for, and did all these things. So tell me about that period of time. Because that matters at the end of the day where we're at now. So, yeah. I'd like to hear a little bit about this.
  • Yeah. So, the goldsmithing was directly related to fountain pens, for sure. I, in my previous life, I was a harpist. And I played the harp, and I studied the harp in Amsterdam. And that's why I lived in the Netherlands. And when I eventually decided to quit my studies, I ended up working at a bank for a year just to get my footing. And I tried to figure out what to do next. And I knew I really liked fountain pens. But what on earth could you possibly do to get to work with fountain pens? What knowledge could I possibly acquire? What study could I follow? And I was still, I was in my early 20s. And so, still studying something was an option at that point. I mean, anybody can study anything at any point if they want to. But I felt like it wasn't too late for me to still kind of start from scratch.
  • And so, I figured, because I'd played with pens so much, and I felt like I had a good feel for nibs in particular. If I learned to manipulate metal, that could be it, right? And who does that? Goldsmiths. Goldsmiths. And so, I just decided to jump into this four-year study, I guess.
  • I guess a second-year trade school. And just see if that would work. Could I possibly? I had no idea at that point, because I'd never, I hadn't held a saw at that point since I was eight. I had no idea if I had any talent for it, but I just figured that that was the smartest move. And so, I did that, and I moved to this tiny little town in the middle of nowhere. I had to speak Dutch. Until then, I'd refused to learn the language, because I didn't think I was going to stick around anyway. And I, yeah, I started this study and became a goldsmith while still playing with pens all the time and knowing kind of this is where I was going to go. And teachers were actually quite bothered by my insistence on it, because the whole study is usually based around jewelry. Most people want to design and make jewelry, and I don't really care all too much about any of that. I just wanted to work with pens. Yeah, that was going to be my question. Was your focus at school from the, maybe not from the very beginning, but even, it sounds like maybe even from the very beginning, to focus on fountain pens by the time you're done? Oh, from before the beginning. Okay, okay. Yeah, so the entire intent was fountain pen-based, yeah. Yeah, so when you're, you know, learning this, and you're in school or in class, and like, this is your focus, and you were saying the professors were getting, you know, like, like, huh, that's what, that's not what most people do. Was anyone else doing, let's say, non-jewelry goldsmithing in there, or were you kind of just kind of, kind of like the lone wolf in the class? I think there was somebody who wanted to get more into musical instruments, like brass instruments. Okay.
  • I feel like that was an entirely wrong choice for them, probably, because I think the study is to actually study making music instruments. Yeah, yeah. But, I don't want to, I mean, other people then focus on other things, some get really into gemstones and gemology, others get way more into the design of things. Yeah, there's a lot of different ways you can take the jewelry aspect of it, like, no knock on that at all, like, there's some really amazing, amazing work being done. Yeah.
  • But, other than that, I don't know, most people are just kind of, like, jewelry-based and thought that was kind of cool. So, when you wrapped up these studies, like, did you go, now what? It's like, what, did you have a plan? Like, what were you thinking, like, when you wrapped everything up? I know this was a, this was a, we've talked about this in the past and probably in our previous episode, about, like, this was a long, a long journey, tough process, a lot of work, a lot of studies, a lot of, you know, markers you have to hit along the way. What were you thinking when you finally, finally graduated from this?
  • It's funny, because I think the last time we talked was right, no, it was probably about a year after I graduated. So, the goal was to work with fountain pens, but at that point, a few months before I started the school, I already met Joost, because I went to the opening of Uppelbaum. Okay. I was there physical location. That's also when I met Aziza for the very, very first time.

Starting work at Appleboom as a nib specialist[edit]

  • And so, Joost actually offered me a job as the in-house NIP specialist two years into my study. Okay. So, and I started in 2016, and then in 2018, March of 2018, he called me up and was like, hey, I notice you've been doing NIP work at local pen club events and stuff. Do you want to be an in-house NIP specialist? And I, there wasn't a lot of doubt in my mind, but some, because I, at that point, like I said, I was a bit old already, and I knew this was my last opportunity at being able to learn something. So, I didn't really want much distraction from school, and I wanted to make sure that whatever I can soak up there and learn, I want to have my full focus on that. But Joost had kind of offered me my ideal job that I, like, it seemed like the best thing that could possibly happen for me when it comes to fountain pens. So, I said yes, and then in April of 2018, I started to work there on Saturdays while I was studied. And so, when I graduated, we knew that we, that I had more time to spend at the shop. So, that's when we started offering custom grinds for the first time, because before then, we only did tuning and just general maintenance and some repair. But I wasn't confident in my grinding work until way, like, at that point, I'd been working with pens for about four years. And that's when I started feeling confident enough to actually grind things for people.
  • So, that's what we did. I started working at Upperbone part-time once I graduated.
  • And the rest of the time, I was going to figure it out. I'd already made a pen at that point, right? Because I graduated making the symphony, which I think is the title of the episode that I was on last. Yes, it is. We did talk about that. Because it must have been about a year after you graduated, because, you know, you were displaying that piece. And I'll have a link in the show notes for everyone to take a look at this beautiful, beautiful pen that you designed. And I still look at that. When I was researching this episode, I was coming on those pictures. And I just sit there and stare at it, just going like, wow, wow, like amazing stuff. Thank you. So, yeah. Gosh, please. We're going to talk about more for sure.
  • We're going to embarrass Annabelle by continuing to talk about how great she is this entire episode. Stop.
  • So, you're at Appleboom. Did that ever become a full-time job at Appleboom? Or did you always keep part of it, part of like, let's call it for lack of a better term, your work life for yourself?
  • Mm-hmm. Um, so, there, a lot needed to happen between then and now, as to why, why I didn't like do this, what I'm doing more. So, I worked at Appleboom part-time the entire time. Okay. Which is all I could possibly do, because I was also starting to travel a lot more. Mm-hmm. Um, two pen shows, and, you know, if you're gone, if you go to a pen show, then double the work kind of waits for you when you come back home. Yes. Um, there's also some health stuff that I had to deal with over the last few years. Um, so, I, I managed to, um, specifically speaking about the nibs now, because that's what I do now, to make those nibs. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think you have one, is what I heard. Yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe.
  • And so, I, I came up with the concept of the, of those nibs, I want to say in 2021, and then released my first batch in 2022, but I could only ever manage to make, like, one batch a year at most, because Appleboom still took so much time while traveling and while trying to do everything else as well. Yeah. While also trying to deal with health stuff. Yeah. But, um, all of that kind of changed last summer. Mm-hmm. Uh, we finally got, like, a treatment that works well for me, and I suddenly have a lot more energy and a lot more. Yay. Just, I'm the healthiest, I think, I've, I've been ever in my life, and, and suddenly that I'm, you know, I'm so productive. I'm certainly not the only one that's happy to hear that, so I love that for you, so. Thank you. I did, um, manage now that you're not officially working for Appleboom, I am going to, um, put a couple of questions I wouldn't normally ask a current 10-store employee. But as I was told myself, I never thought about this until, like, within the past year, someone told me, Brad, I, I, I ask you the questions because you're independent. Right? Like, I don't have a, I don't have a say in a brand, and I can say how it really is. So, I thought, being the, you know, an in-house nib person for so many years, I need to know what was the worst brand of nibs to work on. And this could be QC out of the box, they were bad, or it could be the way they're designed, they're more difficult to work on for you, professionally.

Brand preferences and custom nib work[edit]

  • So, spill the tea. Oh, I'm so happy. Um, okay, okay. I love all the brands. Phenomens are great. Yeah, we do. Having said that, you know why I got hired, right?
  • No. I think, I, I think you're gonna, You know the sole reason, the sole brand. I think you're gonna tell me, I think you're gonna tell me, and I'm gonna remember, yes, but I, I can't, off the top of my head. But I, I mean, I could take a guess. Do you want me to guess? You can guess. Visconti. Absolutely. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, this is a long running, now allegedly, mostly fixed, better, better, we'll call it better. I have opinions, but yeah. Okay. So, yeah, no, you go ahead. So, like, that's why you were hired, because of the volume of work you needed to do on those nibs, especially this is 2018, 2019. Yeah. That was not a great time for the brand. It was an awful time for the brand. And so, and that's annoying for retailers. And that's why I almost feel guilty for having my job, because it makes it easier for, for, for brands to get away with bad QC. Because that's all I did was QC. I made sure that the, that any Visconti nib that left the store was first checked by me to make sure it actually wrote.
  • And that, that was my sole purpose in the beginning at Upper Bohm. And then it turned into a, hey, can you, in general, make sure the pen's right well? And, and then people having custom requests to like, hey, can you just make my pen a bit wetter? I prefer it a bit wetter. And it grew and grew and grew from there. So Visconti is definitely on my, I don't want to swear. Yeah. Because we had a tally last time, but it's on our list. We did. I think we got up to three, three edits last time. So far, zero. I'm doing well so far. Yeah. So far, zero. We'll change that.
  • But yeah, Visconti is definitely up there and they, they had a really bad run. And now apparently they make the nibs in-house or somebody else makes those nibs. It's not bugging anymore. Yeah. And that was a tough journey. The very first ones were also not, not great. And now they are still kind of, I want to, I call them awkward. Okay. I find them awkward. Yeah. How they're put together.
  • Visconti, if you want to hire me to like fly out at some point and help you figure out how to make a nib, I'd be happy to. Seems great. Yeah. I think that would, I think that would add to your CV. That would be perfect. So yeah. I mean, we, I, I, I can't make you answer that question without telling me, okay, what nibs were the easiest or what was the best? We got to give, we got to give a shout out to somebody. I mean. You also know the answer to that. I actually don't, but I, I'll have, I'll have another guess and I think it's probably Mont Blanc.
  • Oh, interesting.
  • You know what? I, QC, I didn't do a Mont Blanc very, very often just because Mont Blanc is Mont Blanc and they have certain rules as to whether they like other people touching them. Mm-hmm. Um, they, you're right, you're probably right. They usually were pretty, pretty decent out of the box. Okay. But my answer would have been Pilot. Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If I had more than a second to think about it, yeah, that's the one I always talk about. Yeah. Yes, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Why? Like what, what makes Pilot nibs different than Platinum and Sailor from a professional's eyes from under the microscope? If anyone has seen the Annabelle show. I obviously, I, so, okay, so I'm, I'm a bit, I'm notorious.
  • Um, even other like nib specialists at pen shows will be like, oh, you wanted a super smooth, extra fine. Go, go bother Annabelle. Cause I just like a pen to be as smooth as it can be. So I'm not a huge Sailor fan. Sorry, Sailor. Love you. Your designs are great, but I just don't like the texture of it. Sure. It's a, absolutely. And the porousness of the tipping. Yep. That tipping is just awesome. And the way they shape it makes sense and works. They can be a bit dry and they have been drier lately. So every now and then you need to give them what I call a back crack. So you just take the time. So I'm going to go, eh. Just, just run them apart a little bit. Don't do it at home. Yeah. I was going to say, I know I need, I don't have any edits, but I now have a disclaimer. Thanks. Thanks Annabelle. We now have a disclaimer because I'm going to start getting bills for people back cracking their nibs. Let's not do that.
  • Don't do it at home. But yeah, so they can be a bit dry, but it depends on how heavy your hand is.
  • Japanese, in the Japanese culture, it seems that they tend to have slightly heavier hands for the shorter strokes. And that's why the ink is so wet. So the drier the nib, the wetter the ink, and then their hands tend to be, you know, just a bit heavier and they have a ton of like short little strokes in the writing. Whereas European pens tend to be a bit wetter and the ink tends to be drier. And we tend to have these long cursive kind of strokes. It all plays together beautifully in that way. That's why we love this because we can have this level of nerd talk. And I'm over here going, I was like, oh, that's why I like this ink and this pen. And people are listening to this nod in their heads. They're going, oh yeah, like this is like the perfect match. And like this explains why. And that's why this is such a fun hobby because the options are just infinite to get like something perfect for you, like specifically. And that's what puts a smile on my face and makes me very happy to be able to have superstars on the line like I do today. So we're going to, I'm actually not, we're actually going the other direction right now. Once I, once we talk about our second sponsor this week, and that's Enigma Stationery.
  • This episode of the pen addict is brought to you by Enigma Stationery. Enigma Stationery offers unique items made from in-house designs, along with top brands and hard to find imports. Back in 2022, Enigma introduced their pride collection to benefit the Trevor project, leading to more than $1,000 in donations by the end of 2024.
  • For 2025, Enigma are setting a new goal to raise $10,000 through a combination of direct donations and new pride collection products. Enigma believes in the power of the amazing stationery community to support LGBTQIA plus youth through your support of the Trevor project's amazing work. Whether you'd like to make a donation, join Enigma's fundraising team, or help spread the word, all support is welcome. Subscribers to Enigma Stationery mailing list and followers of the Enigma YouTube and Blue Sky accounts will be the first to see the new pride collection items when they launch later this spring. To visit the Enigma Stationery fundraising page to make a donation or join the fundraising team today, go to enigmastationery.com slash fundraising. That's enigmastationery.com slash fundraising to make a donation or get involved and join Enigma's fundraising team. Our thanks to Enigma Stationery for their support of this show and all of Relay. All right. So it's the next chapter for you coming up now. You are, as of our recording, how many weeks or might even be days from leaving your position at Appleboom? It's day one.
  • Officially. It's my first week. That's hilarious. Completely unemployed. Self-employed. Employed now. Oh, fun-employed is the preferred term. No. Okay. I got a quick no. We're on Zoom video. I got a quick no on that one. I get that for sure. I get that for sure. I mean, no, I am definitely having fun. Yes. I, the, the independence and the freedom definitely, you know. Yeah. It, it feels good. Yeah. It feels good. It feels great. Yeah. But hey, it's, it's also tough. And, you know, like, I want to talk about like the decision, like, I'm sure you did not come about this easily to really just, I guess the best way I can put it in, I'll let you put it in your own words, is to go independent and work for yourself going forward in the pen industry is, how would you call it? That is what I'm doing. Yeah. Yeah. You're working for yourself now. It's more of an entire shift because it's not like I'm doing what I did at Applebaum and do that by myself now. I don't think I would want that because that sounds like an awful lot of admin that my colleagues did for me that I don't want to deal with. Um, but it's very much a shift from the work at Applebaum was for my brain, very repetitive and I am a fairly creative person and I, I tend to have a lot of ideas and it's hard for me to do anything if I can't get those ideas like out of my system into a sketch or a prototype. Um, and so with everything that's been happening with all the, the harmonic nibs that I started bringing out in 2022 that gained ever more popularity, I guess I want to say, or people were curious or I don't know how you want to put that. Yeah. Popularity. I mean, let's, let's sing your praises. It, it, your, your nibs are pretty freaking great. I mean, I mean, that's not the only thing, but like, there's a reason that popularity is the word we're using. Right.
  • Even though like, like you don't, you don't want to praise yourself just like all of us, like who do our own thing for a living, you know, we'll, we'll downplay it. And like, it's a difficult thing. Like we could, you and I could do an entire podcast on like, you know, imposter syndrome and mental health and all this stuff. We talk, we talk a lot, uh, you know, about those kinds of things. We could literally do a whole podcast, but like, it, it's hard reflecting on, uh, yourself and, and people telling you that you're great at what you do. Like, it's difficult. Like no lie.
  • It, yeah, it is. And no, you said it all. You said it all. So the other episode, the other podcast that I'm going to start next to the one where I call people out is just Brad and I talking about how we're frauds. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, the nibs gain traction, uh, once I started releasing them and I want to make stuff right at the end of the day, I'm a goldsmith. It, I became a goldsmith cause I wanted to work with nibs and I thought that was it, but it, I am a goldsmith now. And so that means I want to make stuff and I can make stuff. And in the beginning of the year, I decided to, um, to try and make a nib a week. Okay. Yeah. And then I decided to make a, uh, waiting list. And so if anybody actually wanted a harmonic, get yourself on that waiting list and, and I'll, I'll try to make it happen. Um, and because the years previous, the, my nib sold out very, very quickly whenever I made a batch. And so I just wanted to see how much interest is there and can I actually, can I meet that demand? And, and there was interest, there is demand. And so for about two or three months, I made a nib every week and I did Applebaum and I traveled. I went to California. I went to, to, to Houston, um, spent a few days with drum goals. And so I really can't do it all. Yeah. That was, and so there's clearly, I have to make a choice and I have to leave something behind.

Reflections on nib work and pen shows[edit]

  • And nibs, especially custom nibs bring me so much joy. I love traveling to pin shows. And I think with Applebaum, I probably got as much out of it as I ever could have, which is I wanted to get good at nib work that, and that was the perfect opportunity to do it. When I was in 2018, learning how to grind nibs, just because I did it so much, that was the perfect way to do it. I had access to so many pens and I, I think I really had learned to understand what makes nib and what makes a nib good and what was necessary for it to work well. But, but, but I think, I think I, I maxed out that skill tree. And so now it's time to take that time that I spent there and invest in something else. Yeah. Which is me and my business and R&D and coming up with wacky stuff. Yeah. I think that's a great way to put it and a great way to, to, to frame it and, and put it all together. And the reason why you're doing this. So if you can, and this is probably a little bit difficult in the podcast form. Matt, but I just want to put a little bit of contact context around what the harmonic nib is and how you actually make them, you know, without going in, like, if there's, if it's possible to do like a, like a high level discussion around that, because what Annabelle's not doing is taking an existing nib and manipulating it into something new. We are, we are melting gold, right? We are. Yeah, absolutely. Ideally, ideally we're melting old nibs. Yep. Scrap, a lot of gold, scrap.
  • Yeah. Last year I did a batch with CY for the San Francisco pen show where he sent me the scraps of his, of his stack nibs, of which there are plenty. And I melted all of those down to make the base sheet out of it that I then used to make my nibs. So my process is very goldsmith informed. All of my tools are pretty bare bone. I have a torch, I have hammers, I have a hammer, I have a little mallet right here.
  • Nice. I just threatened Brad. Yeah, I'm going to behave. It's fine. Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah. So I, yeah, I make these nibs, I make them from scratch and they are, they're kind of fun because they are kind of inspired by Japanese stacked nibs, right? That was what I kept thinking about when I first thought of the harmonicas. They are light layered nibs, but that means you always have to sacrifice one well-functioning nib to, to weld that on top of the base nib that it's, you know, welded on. And the whole point is that you have more tipping material so you can create these awesome Japanese grinds that are kind of like brushstroke-like, right? And so I always thought how, what a shame it was that you had to destroy a whole nib to make that stacked nib happen. And so I tried to think of a way that you could make a layered nib, but out of one sheet of metal. And that's how the idea came about. And not even knowing what it was going to do. I had no idea what, you know, I'd made a nib before because the symphony has a nib. I think I'd made, you know, if you add the bench, you just like make stuff and play around and try to see what makes it nib good or whatever. But so the harmonic is layered on top of itself and the second layer kind of like meets the bottom layer at the tipping and it's all like soldered together in that one spot.
  • And my process is very bare bone. And I, I, I, I, I, so I, first I engrave it. Um, and that's probably the fanciest, um, tools that I do have is my engraving setup at this point with a beautiful pneumatic hand system by GRS. I'm in love. I have a new sharpening system now. It's so good. I love engraving is like my big, like the thing that I want to get really, really good at over the next decades. It's getting good at engraving would be a dream. Um, and so I engrave it and then I, I sew out the shape of it and I, I, I hand file it and sand it and I, I shape it with, um, what do you call it? Like a big steel stick and a hammer and I just shape it around it. Um, I don't, I forgot the word for it. Um, that's the thing where you, if you're bilingual or trilingual and you learn, I learned goldsmithing in Dutch. I never learned goldsmithing in English. So words just escaped me. But so I shape it by hand and I have some pliers and I shape it and I, and I solder the tipping on and I slid it by hand. And then it's fully, fully handmade and no nib looks like the other. And they're all probably a little bit wonky, but that's how it'll be. Yeah. It's brilliant. That's what a fully handmade product, not any product fully handmade is going to be, you know, have that, you know, wonderful touch of the maker who, whose hands were actually, you know, putting their vision out there. And in your case, it happens to be a nib that, you know, people use to write with and engage with every day. And like, that's kind of a big deal for a lot of people to like, you know, use this type of nib. I'm very fortunate to be able to own one of your nibs. I don't have words to describe it, right? It's really because it's so beautiful and supremely functional and kind of crazy all at the same time. Like all of these words, like, you know, make just this awesome kind of perfect product that someone literally made starting with melting gold and turned into this thing. And I don't know how it happens, but I'm glad Annabelle is in my life and all of our lives to bring these nibs out. Like it's, it's, it's really, really genuinely awesome. So I love seeing it. So I wanted to make sure people understood, especially first time listeners of the show, like what we're talking about here is, is really complex, artistic, beautiful work that it takes a lot of time, a lot of knowledge, a lot of effort. What's, what excites you most of in the nib making process, right? I mean, I would guess the most exciting part for you is to giving, to, to, to hand over the nib to the end user, right? Like that's pretty cool. But like when you're making a nib, like what's your favorite part?
  • That's an excellent question. I think the, obviously handing it over feels pretty great after you put in all the work. And I mean, I remember when I gave the nib to you, that felt like a, that just felt like an inherently meaningful. Yeah. Exchange. Anyway, given our history and given, given everything. Right. And we had not, not to totally distract you, but not only was it a really special time for us and to get this done and to have it done. And the pen I provided, we were able to get the artist who made the pen, Matoshi from Stilo Art, happened to be at the same show and hadn't met you before. And I was like, I'm, I'm going to bring him over and we're all going to, we're all going to talk about what is happening here. And it was a really special moment. That's a very behind the scenes. No one cares about this thing, Brad. But, but that was a very, that is something I will not forget for the rest of my life. That moment with you and him and myself discussing this was really cool. So anyway, I've totally distracted, you know. No, no, that's certainly fine. It's, I love, I mean, I love craftsmanship. So even just having the pen at my house for so long, you know, I spent a lot of time with that pen and like making sure that it fit. Cause it had a pilot feed, right? Right. I'd not made a harmonic that fit onto a pilot before. So I had to kind of prototype that and make, figure out the shape of that and make sure that that works. So meeting other craftspeople who are so good at what they do is exciting. And to be considered among them, that's ridiculous anyway. That's a crazy notion.
  • So yeah, that, that was amazing. But back to the nib part, what do I enjoy the most? Yeah. It may be, it's either, so with the, with the batch nibs that I make now, so I either make them in batch, however many of whatever design I choose. Um, or I make custom nibs with a particular design in mind or something crazy that we think up. Um, for the batch nibs, it's probably still the engraving. Okay. I love engraving. It's so great. It's maybe because it's the thing that I, like I'm already a goldsmith. I already have a degree in that. I already have proof that I can shape things and sort of things, but engraving, I'm still, I'm still trying every day. I'm still learning every day and I practice every day and I will, and so in every single engraving, I hope most people can't see it. I hope, but, but I see myself improving every single time. And I look at my exact cuts and how I met, how I met the gold and whether I held it at a certain angle. It's, it's a very, very nuanced. Um, and so just the fact that I'm not, it's like in the beginning of a video game and you still have so much to explore and you know, there's so much still to, to master, I guess. And so I'm eager to do that. There's so much more to do.
  • Do you listen to music while you engrave?
  • I listen to music surprisingly little. Okay. I was just curious because that's a very, I'm thinking about like how I work with detailed work that's not even on close to a level that you're doing. And I generally almost have to have a distraction to focus. If that makes sense, right? How I'm built. I'm just wondering how like that engraving process, that's a really detailed head down focused work. Yeah. Is that in, are you just hearing the tools going and your mind looking at the pattern or is there something else going on? Um, I'm a, so, I, so you, you see me right now on my PC right here. My work benches are over there. I have another monitor right by my work benches. Um, and I usually just have stuff running, be it podcasts or science YouTube stuff or instructional engraving videos about engraving, like engraving classes. Uh, or I just have discord on, sometimes I just have people on discord and they watch me engrave as I, as I do it. And we just chat. Nice. Um, I find that with any, any, whenever I work with my hands, I also need like intellectual stimulation. And if, if I do something repetitively, then that's particularly true. So I can't just think about the cut. Gotcha. It is a practice thing. It's a repetitive thing. Um, and I was going to say when it comes to custom nibs, my favorite thing is probably discussing what the nib is and what it's meant to be for the person. Or if they have a crazy idea, what do they want? How can we implement it? And then prototype the living hell out of it because there's so many techniques that I don't think anyone ever thought to apply on, on the nib making process. Cause nibs, uh, you know, they're mass produced. It would be very silly to do something very inefficient on a nib, but I can do that because I make one nib at a time. Oh yeah. That's, that's really cool to think about. And that whole process and that creativity process and the collaborative process of, I mean, we're creating art here, right? It's functional art. And it's, it's important to a lot of people, not just the maker, but also the recipient and the user of the product. It's, it's, it's great to have that level of, of collaboration and passion about this product, uh, and project together. It's, it's really cool. So, so Annabelle, where do you see yourself in five years? No, I'm just kidding. I hate that. That's a horrible, I hate that. I will never ask anyone that question. I just wanted to throw you off there real quick, but I, I, I want to know what's, uh, this, if we're day, day one of the new world, what is, what's the rest of your year look like? I know you're doing a little traveling for pen shows and you know, what are you, what are you thinking about the rest of this year?

Future plans and upcoming projects[edit]

  • Oh, that's a very good question. Um, so there is my wait list of nibs that I'm, um, we're, we're hoping to kind of like work off right now. We're at about 17 months. So, um, ideally keeping up with that and making sure I, I keep making stuff, uh, that would be great. I would, I will be going to a lot of pen shows. Um, I will spend about three months this year in the U.S. Oh, wow. If they let me in. Yeah. So, um, anyway. I was, I was going to say my apologies, but you know, you'll, you'll get to come to, to the pen shows and, and hang out, you know, and, and see some cool people. So, yeah.
  • Maybe, hopefully if they show up.
  • Um, so yeah, I think the next show is Chicago. We'll be doing San Francisco, Orlando. Okay. I might do Denver this year because I've never done that. I might do script us. I would love to tackle bigger projects again. Something like the symphony would be super exciting. Um, and then last year in San Francisco, uh, at the pen show, I met a member of the community, uh, that people in Slack probably especially know. His name is Dustin and he's a maniac and he's been a huge asset in my life ever since I met him. Um, and he, and, and so I think it wouldn't be without him that I would have, that I would have like taken this step now to actually become independent. Cause I like safety. I like being employed. It's very nice. Um, but, but we sat down one night and he was like, if I were you, it just, you know, you gotta make nibs now. You just gotta do it. And whenever we, we, we talk, we come up with like wacky ideas of, of cool things that we want to make. And so we have a few ideas in mind that if they come to fruition and they, they actually happen, uh, I think people might quite enjoy them. So if those were to come true, that'd be, that'd be super cool. Yeah. Um, but I don't want to say too much cause I don't want to, you know, it's great to have that. It's great to have that sounding board too. Right. Especially like when you're starting off a new venture and you know, you have all these ideas in your head and then, but you, you may miss something or just not see things the same as someone else does. And I have a sounding board like Dustin. I don't want to, I don't want to prop him up too much. I don't want his head to get too big, but he knows I love him. And, uh, yeah, I just gotta, you know, not, not big up him too much. So, but to know he's, he's great. And it's great to see, um, you know, to have, to have that sounding board. Did I, I maybe saw one of the, let's just call it things you're playing with maybe at the California pen show. That could be interesting. So yeah, like, you know, just having, having these thought processes for like a super niche community. Right. From someone who can make things in, you know, not a non mass produced kind of way is, is super interesting to me. And that's like one of my favorite things about the community, honestly, and the makers and everyone, everything that's, people are putting their own ideas out there. Yeah. In a way that us, you know, end users can get this great enjoyment, you know, from. So yeah. What's, uh, what I especially appreciate, um, because in a way, uh, working at a pen shop, but being the person that only like fixes the broken things. Right. I kind of, I see the worst of the worst and I see just like super moldy pens and whatnot. Uh, I think over the, the, the years, I probably occasionally grew kind of cynical about pens almost. Sure. And so whenever I'm back in the community or at pen shows or talking to Dustin, who's a complete maniac, um, about pens to, to have, to have this, just this enthusiasm back in my life. And again, whenever I'm at a show or talking to him, it's just so great to, to be like, yeah, no, this is great. This is stuff that we love. Oh, we love playing with ink. Wait, what is this? What? Oh, oh, have you tried these papers yet? No, I hadn't seen these papers yet. I hadn't cared about papers in like a year because I grind nibs all day. Um, so, so yeah, I just, it being pulled back into the community more and having somebody like Dustin in my life who like just throws it at me. Um, and the yes ands ideas that I have because we love, we love this stuff. Um, that's just been huge. And I'm, I don't know, I love it. I think I have the best life now. Like I was somehow ended up in this position where I just get to, I just get to explore now.
  • Well, we're lucky to have you and everything that you do. Um, I appreciate you spending this time with me today. It's way too short. Um, you know, we got to get back to, you know, we, we would check in with each other every once in a while, just have a call set up. We got to get back to doing that. I have so much time now. I'm unemployed. I know. I know. Fun employed. Fun employed. Ploid.
  • We're ployed. So, um, best of luck to your future employment.
  • Thank you so much. In these coming days, weeks, and years. I know we're all, we're all anxious and excited for you. And I know you, you have a lot of fans out there that, uh, follow everything you do. So we'll have all of the links in the show notes in this week's episode. Uh, anything else you want to, you want to shout out or mention before we go? Yes, I actually want to say quick. I want to, I want to, I want to thank you real quick. So when I was in LA, I, I, you know, I was doing a show. I still grind nips, by the way. I still grind them. Yes. Yeah. Sign up early. Yeah. About a month before the show. Um, so at the show, I, I see a name on a list and I'm like, I think I remember this name. What, who, what? And he comes to my table and I'm like, Hey, have you grown a nip for you before? And he's like, no, actually I bought both of your, like a nip from your first two releases. And I was like, Oh, of course. I'm so sorry. Like I recognize the name of course, cause I hadn't, I don't sell that many nips. I see every single name and I grind every single nip and I have contact with them. Like, Oh, I'm so sorry. How did, but why did you buy the nip? Like why the first batch, nobody had tried them. Why would you, why would you buy a nip that you've never tried? Nobody's ever tried. And they're not, you know, they're not the cheapest nips out there. And he said, well, I'd, I'd listened. I don't, I'd listened to this podcast. One day on my drive home.
  • And, and I just really liked your story and, and I just wanted to support you. And I was like, was it, was it the pen addict? He's like, yeah, yeah, that one. I'm like, that is crazy. That's so wild that somebody, he shouldn't have known of me. Like, why would he? And then he listened to, to us and that made him just think that my, my first nip was worth buying. And that's insane. And that's only, only because you, you kind of like believed in my work from like day one. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. Thank you. Hey, you know, it's, it gives me your, your most enjoyment making nips. My, my, my biggest enjoyment is sharing everyone else's stories with everyone else. So that's what I get enjoyment from. So hearing that story makes me smile. That's, that's all. I mean, it's a silly podcast about pens, but we can introduce people to other awesome people and have a great time doing it. So thank you so much. I, that's, that's awesome. I don't think you told me that story yet before. So I appreciate that. That's super cool. It just happened. Yeah. That's cool. That's cool. All right. Well, we'll wrap it up here. We'll have to do this again. We should do, we should probably do like an annual check-in and see, you know, keep you accountable. Maybe do like, do like a nibventory. If I actually made any nibs. Yeah. Yeah. If you made any nibs or anything like that. All right. I'm gonna let you get out of here. I appreciate all the time. I appreciate our sponsors this week, our good friends over at Squarespace and Enigma Stationary. Until next time, say goodbye, Annabelle. Goodbye. Thank you so much. And I'll see you at a pen show.
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