The Pen Addict 600/transcript

From RelayFM, this is The Pen Addict, episode 600. This episode is brought to you by Pen Chalet, February 9th, 2012. So just shy of 12 years ago, is episode one of The Pen Addict, where I, Mike Hurley, introduced the podcast world to the one and only Brad Doughty.

Hi, Brad. And everyone's lives have gone downhill since. No, and the- Maybe they're bank accounts. The balance in the podcast universe shifted forever. How does it feel to be an OG podcaster?

Because I feel like we're OG, even though podcasts were really going. When we started, you were already podcasting. We've been doing this for a dozen years. Yeah, and I've been listening to this stuff for a long time.

So it had been around for a long time. I think it was 2007 or something. Yeah, around seven or the beginning. But at this point, though, it makes me feel OG.

Because there really isn't, I don't think there are that many people still going who were going before us. Yeah. They exist, but not to the same level. And so to have done a podcast for 12 years has that feeling of, oh, yeah, we're here from day one. Yeah.

And I'm just immensely proud of it because I feel like our episode one still holds up. Like, we've been very consistent. Well, I wouldn't recommend listening to it because it would sound terrible. But yeah, I'm sure the content was good.

Yeah, I did that. That was my homework for episode 400, which honestly just seems like yesterday. I can't believe we're already gone from like 400 to 600. That gap seems like wild to me.

That seems like really, really like it was yesterday. So, yeah, it's been good. So, we're going to kind of do like a big picture talk today. Yeah. I think, you know, we'll just talk about a little reminiscing, a little bit of forward thinking, a little bit of backward thinking, a little bit of big idea type of stuff.

I took some questions from the Pen Addict Slackers on, you know, what they wanted to get our opinions on for episode 600. So, we're going to have all of that here in this episode upcoming momentarily. But I did want to, you know, ping you with a couple of questions here.

And the very, very interesting one to me, because I can already see we're thinking along the same lines. So, my question to both of us, really, if the podcast were a Pen, what Pen would it be? So, maybe you can help me think of the Pen, right? Because what I'm thinking of is like the Porsche 911, right?

Okay. So, I have the Pen, and I think you described the Pen that I'm talking about. So, you go first and tell me what you were thinking about, like the 911, which is a classic design, right? It's a classic. It doesn't change very much. You know it when you see it.

Because it was set in the beginning well. And yeah, you know it when you see it. Like, lots of other cars have tried to imitate it, but none will be it. Don't you forget it.

You Pen podcasters, we're number one around here. Long-lasting, iconic design. It doesn't change. It just adapts slightly. They don't do like big out-of-left-field changes.

That's kind of how I think about the show. The format of the show has not really changed in the last 12 years. We've made slight adaptions here and there. We've gone in some directions, come back, but the overall show is still the same as it always has been.

And so, it makes me think of like the Porsche 911. So, what pen does that remind you of? The Pilot Vanishing Point. You know, I was thinking Vanishing Point, too.

So, if the podcast is a pen, we're the Pilot Vanishing Point for all the reasons that you say, right? It's a classic. It's an old pen, right? Started like in the late 60s. The general concept has been the same through the entirety of its, you know, 50, 60, 70-year run at this point.

It can't be beaten, right? No one's been able to duplicate and have such a good quality as it is. And I'm not saying that necessarily about our podcast, you know, the Get Off Our Lawn stuff. We joke about that stuff.

We're very, we would like you to come on our lawn and we would like to visit your lawns as well. But, yeah, like I think it's the Pilot Vanishing Point. It just works. It's weird, right? It's weird. It's cool. It's technically good and solid. It's quality. You know it when you see it.

And, like, I just feel like that's kind of like the perfect. It's also like separate from that. It was like one of my first big pen purchases and something like we were super interested in back in the day. It was for both of us.

Like it was one of the first. Like it was like a pen that kind of when we both found out about it was like, oh, this is like really cool. This feels like a dream product, right? Like a retractable fountain pen that just seems so convenient. Right. Right.

And, like, to this day, it's still an important pen. Yeah. And it's going to keep on going. And it's going to celebrate its annual special editions. And we're going to celebrate our milestone episodes.

So, yeah. I think the show is the Pilot Vanishing Point. I'm pretty happy with that. So, you reached out to listeners and you asked them for some questions. And so, obviously, we have questions.

That's going to be today's episode. It's not really an RSTPA as such. Right. These tend to be bigger things. Stuff about kind of looking at the show, looking at us, and also kind of our bigger feelings about the stationary landscape.

The first question comes from Michael who says, I'm going to start serious, Michael says. With so many content creators, especially YouTubers, retiring from their major projects and moving on to new creative endeavors or none at all, have you given any thought about how long you will continue to do the pen addict?

I'm assuming. So, my thinking is, Michael was asking the discussion directly to you. I'm going to take it for me, like, just in general. And in referencing the pen addict, we mean all of it, not just the podcast or whatever. But, like, so that's everything you do, everything I do.

If you do move on, would you just shut the whole thing down or perhaps hand it over to a new generation to carry the torch? Obviously, I do not want you to end it or step away, but it's a question I have about this new creator economy and how it moves forward as the first generation of creators perhaps contemplate either actually retiring or just stepping away for new horizons.

Great question, right? Like, this is what the episode, like, I think is about and thinking about some of these things. So, you and I have probably seen a lot of, I've seen a lot in the YouTube space where a lot of the creators that have been doing it longer than us or even shorter than us that, like, grew really big or stepping back, right?

Like, I think, I don't want to speak for you, but have you noticed that here recently? Like, you see, especially on the YouTube side of things. And, you know, creators come and go. And I think given the length of time we've been doing this, we probably in the beginning didn't think we'd be still doing this.

I don't know. Maybe we did. Maybe we didn't. No, I don't, I don't, I don't think you ever really, like, any creative project set it up with the idea that you would do it for 12 years. Like, not necessarily, like, you think you would stop or whatever, like, I didn't have, and I don't have still, like, of any of my projects, like, oh, how long am I going to do them for?

Like, I'm going to do them for as long as I do them. But, like, to have begun and be like, oh, we'll do this for 12 years, that doesn't, you know, like, you wouldn't, you wouldn't think about that. It's a weird thing to think about. Yeah, and nor did I ever think about it being my job, right?

Which I think is. Well, I did, I mean. Yours was different, right? For me and for you, though.

Because you wanted a podcast network. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But for you as well, like, I always knew you could do this. As your profession. And I tried to push you to do it for a really long time.

Yes, yes. So, Myke is very important in my, and I'm not joking when I say this, Myke is very important in my life, in my career, in having someone in my corner to, you know, show me the light and talk me up. So, I do appreciate that. We all need it.

Yep, yep. So, this, I think, guides my answer to Michael's question is that I don't really have, like, the type of burnout that someone who maybe goes into content creation from the jump saying I'm going to be a content creator. And these are the 500 things I need to do to, like, execute on this plan perfectly and beat the algorithms and make my space and make a career out of it.

Right? So, I've been able, and let me just be clear, I'm very fortunate to be able to come at it from a little bit of a different angle and keep my sanity over these years. Even though we have moments of insanity very frequently. I always want to come back and do this.

So, to directly answer the question, how long do we think, you know, I'll speak for myself, how long do I think I'm going to do this? I think I told Myke the other day, like, this year or maybe late last year, it's like, I've never considered what the end of the show would look like.

But a few years ago, somewhere probably after episode 500, I was like, I want to go to episode 1000 in 10 more years. Right? That would be a thousand podcast episodes in 20 years of the podcast. I was like, that was what I was thinking of, like, but like, you know, things happen, whatever.

Like, I don't, I don't, like, I don't have that written on a post. It stuck to my, stuck to my monitor here going, you know, yes, 1000 episodes. That's the goal. Right? But like, I feel good about that. I feel happy with what I do.

Yeah. I'm, we're going to touch on this more. Like, I'm still enamored by the whole stationary space and everything that comes along with that and being able to talk about that. So, the second part of the question, if I were to step away one day, what does the future look like?

That one I have no clue on. I don't know how I would end it, what it would, what would happen. And I would like, and maybe this is a focus over the next several years, I would like to leave the space in the cliche way better than I found it.

But like, I feel pretty good about like, I think we do a pretty good job of that now. So, I think my focus over the past few years and going forward has been more on the education side, the community building side, the openness and welcoming side of things, as opposed to just like the numbers, right?

The pure content creation aspects of it. So, if I can leave it in a space where people are thankful that this thing happened and it served as a guidepost for things to happen in the future, that would kind of be all I need. But how that like technically ends, I don't know, right?

Yeah, so I'm about to turn 36 and I've been podcasting for 14 years. So, it's a huge portion of my life and I have been podcasting professionally for 10 years. Like, it's been my actual job for 10 years. But it is also funny to me that this show is 12 years old and Relay will turn 10 years old.

And it feels kind of, it doesn't feel like it's possible that the show was only like two and a half years old when we started Relay. Because it felt like it would be going forever before then too, which is just like... We did a lot like in the before Relay years.

We did like three different networks kind of thing. Yeah, I mean, I think it was because, well, it was like two. We had two, yeah, yeah. And we joined five by five and then it was two Relay.

And I think that that was exemplified in the sense of me trying really hard to like make it my job. It was like I was just taking whatever opportunities I could to get me closer and closer. And so like having done this, this is the longest I've ever done anything, right?

Podcasting. My show with you is the longest professional relationship I have had. And it will probably be the longest I ever have. Like I just don't imagine why that wouldn't be the case. So like I am like aware of how long I've been doing this, which is why something, which is why Cortex Brand exists for me, right?

I need to be able to have a new thing to work on that is like interesting and successful. That isn't just starting more podcasts, right? It's what I've done over time, just start new shows. Because I like new challenges.

I like to learn how to deal with new problems. And so Cortex Brand really is kind of protecting my ability to be able to podcast into the like long term, right? Because it's, well, one, it's diversifying me and also just like providing me with something new to work on.

Exactly. Like it's multifaceted. Like it's not financially, it's also mentally, right? Which is really important to me. Not everybody needs that, but I do. And the idea, like would I pass it on, right?

I don't know about that. Like I see the benefit to it, but I'm also not sure how comfortable I feel about it, right? Like to have somebody else step in for me on my shows and like now they're that person's shows, it just feels strange because like built them.

Right. I am more keen and have been more keen in the past and have done lots of things in trying to help bring new people in. And like support as much as I can and stuff. But the idea of like just saying, here you go person, take this show.

Like that, that feels odd. But it could be on a case by case basis, right? Like that I might want to do it. But I can't imagine just being like, all right, I'm retiring from Relay now.

And Bobby is going to host all of my shows now. Like that just feels weird. Yeah. Yeah. So that was our long way of saying there's no end in sight for us. Y'all are stuck with us for a while.

No. I can't. Honestly, like I don't. I could imagine lots of things changing, you know? Sure. Like there will be so many things that would change before this show would end. And like, and it could be something like we can't do weekly anymore, right?

We'd have to go to fortnightly or whatever, right? Because like something in our lives has changed where we need to reduce the time. Like this, this stuff happens, but there are so many things that would change before I would stop doing this. Right, right. And the, the, the one thing we didn't mention and I didn't mention purposefully is I'm much older than you.

So my, my 1000 episode 20 year plan puts me at 60 years old, which is like, you know. That doesn't seem like a problem. It doesn't to me. But like, if I, if I think about it too hard, I was like, wow, I'm going to be talking about like pastel friction gel pens when I'm 60.

Then I'm like, yeah, yes I am. So like, I mean, that's when I'm like, oh man, am I going to be talking about gel pens when I'm 46? Yeah. I mean, I was doing it when I was 26. Yup. Yup. There like, there's like, we'll, we'll touch on this more throughout this episode because there's some questions relating to it, but like, I could not be more thrilled about being in the stationary industry right now.

So, all right, let's keep going. Can you ask me this? Can you ask this question? Cause I have a, I have an answer that just hit me and it made me quite emotional.

Okay. So let's alternate. All right. So I'll do this one. Well, no, let's not do that. Cause sometimes a lot of these questions, Brad, that are saying, I'll be like, oh, I don't know what's breathing. You know, like when we get the industry stuff, but just this one, just ask this one.

All right. This one. So, Tina tree asks, what advice would the 600 episode versions of you give the first episode version of you starting on this incredible journey? Dream bigger. Okay. I, yeah, that's interesting, right? Because I get that. I did all, I did it all.

Right. So look, Hey, look, if you don't want to hear a couple of guys congratulate themselves for the next 45 minutes, you should probably start now. Yeah. I had so many things I wanted to achieve in my career 12 years ago. And I've done all of them. Like, I don't think there's anything left now.

And so there is like a weird thing where I had to come to terms with this a couple of years ago. Cause it was like a weird feeling that I had, which was like, and I've heard a lot of creators talk about this, like people, when they, they reach the success that they dreamed of, of like now what?

And so, you know, again, why am I looking to other things? Like this is part of why, right? Like setting up new goals, new dreams for myself, what I would want to achieve in my life. Cause I've, I've done it, you know, like I've done it in my overall podcasting career.

You know, I had dreams for this show. I had dreams for my other shows. I had dreams for what it would mean to be a professional podcaster. And I've done, I've done them.

I mean, we're achieving another one this year, but it's like a, it's a newer dream, right? Which is like hosting a big theater show in London. But that's been something I wanted to, I've only wanted to do the last couple of years. And that is the idea of dreaming bigger because it seems like such a hard thing to achieve.

But the things that I really dreamt of doing, I have done them. And it's an incredible thing. And so like when I say that, it's more just, that is me being able to tell me of 12 years ago, you're going to get everything you wanted. And so you might as well think more.

I like that. I like that a lot. And that's good. Like, I think the, the Cortex brand kind of ties into that too, is like, that's kind of like, that wasn't a dream ever in the beginning. Right. Probably. And to have like that kind of work to focus on too.

Right. As, all right, that's a piece of like maybe the next puzzle of what's going to happen later. So I took this question a little bit differently. I mean, it's both valid answers, but I, but because this is something I think about a lot and this is a very personal thing for me and like my, my personal journeys that I've gone through just, you know, like mentally, physically, things like that is that the drama is never worth it.

If you're a content creator, I don't believe in the drama clickbait cycle that a lot of, not in the stationary world particularly, but just in the general world, really short attention span theater drama clickbaity type of stuff. And not that we ever did that, but there were definitely moments that I regretted during the show of trying to impose my status or impose my will as a bastion of righteousness.

And there have been fights you fought that maybe in hindsight you shouldn't have bothered fighting. Right. Might be a simple way to say it. I don't know. Yeah. Like I'm okay discussing like the failures of products and, you know, warning people like, hey, like, you know, you may not want to spend your money in this way.

And, and, and things like that, but, you know, like making things personal or doing things like that, like that's, it's never worth it in the end. And that's something I, I've grown out of over the years and worked on over the years and try to have to catch myself sometimes over the years.

And, you know, it's just a very, very, it's like, it's, it affects me very negatively for very negative benefit, like little to no benefit whatsoever. So, that would be an advice I give myself. even though like, it's not something that comes up much, but when it does, it takes an outsized toll on me.

Right. So that's just a looking back at myself personally, and how I like to operate and the things I believe in. So, yeah, that's, that's something I, I still think about to this day. Zoe asks, what were the most game changing things over the last 600 episodes, products, trends, industry moves?

What has really shaken up the stationary landscape enough that it still sticks out? Kickstarter. This is a tough question. Kickstarter. I literally wrote down one thing and I wrote down Kickstarter. That's, that's what jumps to my mind.

It's, it's enabled businesses to exist, let alone entire like sections of the, the community, right? Like the products. And I mean, we use, we have used it to great success to enable things for the show. but you know, you've used it to great success to launch businesses. And when we started, it was, it was early.

It was like pen type B. It was like, was it pen type C or B? Pen type A. A, my word. Of course it started. A. I was hoping you'd get there in a minute.

Well, you know, the thing is that I don't always necessarily assume that they're naming things in a way that makes sense. I don't know. a hundred percent agree. It's Kickstarter. Once I realized the answer was Kickstarter, I was trying to think of something else that would be, the most game changing thing, like in the span of our run as a podcast.

And that just allowed for so much. I think it's especially important for our industry being a smaller niche industry, right? It's stationary as a whole that you need to find your people that have the special interest in Kickstarter as a platform that allowed for that, right? As opposed to, you know, the bigger projects that were famous back in our early days of Kickstarter, like the Pebble watch or that stupid cooler that never shipped.

And like, those are general products. Like these are coolest. These are more, more, what was that cooler called? Do you remember? Coolest cooler. Coolest cooler. Yeah. Did that ever ship?

I don't know. No, it didn't. but yeah, ours industry, our, our hobby, our business of stationary really kind of thrives on that platform, right? good, good and bad, right? Like once it, once it starts, once anything starts being successful, you start getting some, you know, more interesting, participants.

But, I think that is definitely kind of a, a through line through all of our episodes that, we continue to talk about to this day. Just recently, last episode, right? I got a lot of feedback on, on last episode, which we'll cover in a future episode. I have something wild for you.

Just about the current, current state of Kickstarter. Yeah. Yeah, right. So I've gone to, I went to Kickstarter's, Wikipedia page. - Because I went to see like, when did they start? And they started in, 2009. So it really hadn't been around for very long.

Okay. But listen to this. on February 9th, 2012, Kickstarter hit a number of milestones. A doc made for the iPhone became the first Kickstarter project to exceed a million dollars. A few hours later, an adventure game from developers, Double Fine, did the same. this was also the first time, Kickstarter raised over a million dollars of pledges in a single day.

So there, but that, and that was also the day the show began. Our show began. Ah, that's funny. So we are inextricably linked to Kickstarter. But, because the thing is, even if you, like, you know, you said, it's obviously been a lot of change in the industry. But I think that the proliferation of smaller businesses that are able to come to the fore because of platforms like Kickstarter has also pushed the larger companies to diversifying their lineups.

Because they're aware of, like, preference changes and, pressure in the industry coming from below them. Right. Right. Like, when, when someone can do something, like, fast and good and have the following that they gain and the support that they gain from a Kickstarter, it makes the larger, more established companies kind of go, huh.

Yeah. What's going on over there? Exactly. How do you do, fellow kids? Caroline asks, one time I tried starting the show of episode one and it was all about gel pens. When did fountain pens cross that threshold and was it Brad first or Myke first?

So the threshold came pretty early. Yeah. I didn't go back and grab the first episode. It was the, but from memory, it's either episode seven or episode 10. I can find out for you.

That, that we were really, really quick. I mean, I'm sure we mentioned them before then. Yeah. But I, I had already gone through the, I hate fountain pens phase into I'm buying fountain pens no later than episode 10. Like, it was pretty quick. and then we were off to the races from that point.

Episode 10, you went to the Atlanta Penn Show, which is kind of incredible. And that, the first link is Pilot Vanishing Point, so. Exactly. Exactly. So, yeah. And then episode 14 is me talking about my Pilot Vanishing Point. That's the good stuff, man.

I think, though, at the beginning, I had more of a, a love or an interest in fountain pens than you did. Correct. You actually had fountain pens and I didn't. Yeah. I, I had had more of a, I tried more of them as I was growing up. And so, it was something that I was a little bit more interested in than you were.

But, obviously, it didn't take very long for us to start. And then, you know, obviously, you shot past me. And then I think I caught up. And then you, you took another step.

Yep. Yep. Yep. That's exactly how it flowed. You're exactly right. so, yeah. Like, it's, and I still, like, if y'all have listened to any of the current episodes, y'all know I love my, my, my standard pens, my ballpoints and gel pens and pencils. And every now and then, I'll mix up a non-fountain pen episode just because I love that stuff.

But I always mix in different products in between there because I, there's no less than like a 50%, 50-50 usage rate between fountain pens and standard pens. Like, I use, I use a ton of standard pens. So, yeah. I always talk about them. It's just, what we discovered years ago is just the general marketplace moves faster in, in the fountain pens.

Yeah. Than like your standard gel pen offerings. So. Yep. so we ended up talking about them a little bit more. Damien writes in to say, there was a massive boom in the stationary hobby with COVID. what are your thoughts on where we are in regards to that boom?

Have we seen people pull back from the hobby now that things have gone back to normal for a while? Has the hobby retained a lot of newcomers? Is the hobby growing in a sustainable way? Or are we in a mini boom and bust cycle?

You have any thoughts on this first or you want me to go? Yeah. I mean, cause I probably figure you have some thoughts even generally just from more of a podcasting feel. well, I actually, I was going to talk about keyboards. So, I mean, I genuinely, I didn't, I did not realize a boom in the stationary world during COVID.

Like that didn't, that didn't really seem to change for me. but in pug, in keyboards that did, that was the case, right? Like I got into mechanical keyboards as did many people. And there was a huge boom in interest and aftermarket. And like, then companies started ballooning in size and hiring loads of people.

And like, these are the, you know, this is how it's going to go. And now so many keyboard companies like vendors, designers, creators are going out of business now. And also taking customers products along with them. Like, unfortunately, because of the way that keyboards works, a lot of long lead time pre-orders.

And there are, I have been impacted in this. Everybody I know that's into this has. There are companies that had my money and have now disappeared and I've got nothing for it. and this is because like these companies grew and thought things would always be this way. And then it turned out not to be that way.

And now they've gone out of business. So I, so basically this is to say like lots of industries have gone through this. So it doesn't surprise me that this would have happened in stationary. I just didn't really feel like I noticed it in a, in an intense way.

So we definitely had a little bit of a boom from a retail perspective during that time. Right. Because we're all sitting at home on our computers and trying to get dopamine hits. And a lot of people, not everyone, but a lot of people, I would say actually a lot of people had, more disposable income.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause they weren't using it on other stuff. And so they just used it on things. Yeah. But what I'm not seeing is I think we've come out of it and not that anything, not that this is over or anything, but just that obviously we're just talking about like the big picture shutdown timeframe. is that we've come out of this in a pretty positive fashion.

Like I think it was generally healthy growth, between from retailers. They're also allowed more people to get into the business during that time. Right. Because people are finding other things to do, other ways to occupy themselves and thinking about, Hey, I can do this and taking the time to learn and get into the business.

So I think we've come out of it pretty healthy and that we have more people in the industry. I'm seeing a proliferation of small makers, whether that's pens, inks, any kind of supplies, accessories, you know, maintenance tools, any of that type of stuff. So are we going to hit a peak?

Have we hit the peak? Are we past peak? I, that's, I'm not sure yet. It still feels okay.

It feels a little crowded if I'm being honest, but I don't know that in a bad way. Right. I don't have a strong feeling that we're on the downside of anything at all. Right. We still have new listeners. We still have new people emailing me.

It was people discovering things all the time. You know, I've told myself years ago that I can't forget that there's someone listening to the podcast for the first time today. Right. they'll probably, if this is their first episode, they may never listen to us again, but like, it's going to happen.

Right. There's people reading my blog for the first time. There's people stumbling on some random gel ink pen review because they had a question about something and searched it and landed on my blog and then emailed me for a question. So we still have this curiosity and we still have, the support from like retail and creative sides of things that seems healthy.

Like as someone, like I'll admit, like I'm not in, in the trenches looking at the back end of, you know, a retail storefront and how the graphs are charting, but it seems pretty positive, positive from all the anecdotal commentary and evidence that I have. So we'll see. Like, I still think we have like another year or two, like may do things shake out maybe differently.

Am I having a different conversation a year or two from now? I don't know. I don't, I don't know. It feels pretty good right now is the best I can say, which maybe is not like a great answer, but I think we're retaining newcomers. I think people are still discovering things and sustainability.

I think we're pretty good. Like it, it feels good. Yeah. And I feel like the, you know, if we're talking about like, again, like podcasting or whatever, I've seen things go up and down so many times and it's just a case of being around for long enough and assuming that like things expand and contract, like listening numbers go up and they go down.

And I try not to freak out about it too much. Sometimes it can be concerning, but most of the time it's fine. Like I just know that if things look like they're on a downturn for a bit, it will take, it will take back up again. You've just got to be prepared for it.

Yeah. Just to carry on. Keep, keep on keeping on. Yep. I'll let Myke think about that. I probably, it's probably been two years since I asked him what our download count is.

You don't need to know. I just, yeah, we just keep going. Right. Just keep going. All right. Benjamin says, I think my collection is known for custom pens and pens by small makers. With more small makers and bespoke makers than ever before, what advice would you give to people wanting to stand out in a crowded market?

I'm shaking my head over here because it's really tough. Like I just said, like, I feel we're in, in, in this good sustainable phase, but like it, it's very crowded. Right. Like Benjamin is a hundred percent. Right. I've not, like I just said, I've never seen more makers, small makers getting into this industry than I've seen right now, like in the past, probably year, probably 18, 12 to 18 months.

So how do you stand out from, from the crowd? And to me, it's always going to be storytelling aspects. why do I, you know, want to purchase from this brand or this person? what are their goals? What are their, what are their bigger picture ideas of being in this?

Are they just doing this as a hobby? And that's completely fine. And, you know, just as a, Hey, I'm, I'm learning to do this. You know, that's, that's one type of story or, Hey, I have this thought on that.

I would like to try to execute that. I'm not seeing being done out there. That's a different story and all these different. And then some people will take it from just like a, like a, just nuts and bolts, raw materials perspective.

Hey, I'm going to find something different that no one else is doing. And I'm going to do it this way. So, so that's like the first part of standing out is why would I be compelled to buy from brand a, as opposed to brand B. And it's really just this, ah, this is ridiculous to say, but it's just like a gut feeling and a vibe.

Do you pass the vibe check? I know I said that. Yeah. Creates the vibe. But there is, there's bad marketing, right? Obviously. So, and bad vibes.

So like, I think, I really think the storytelling aspect is so important and I don't mean like describe to me the, why you have this naming convention of your product. I mean, like I want the story in the soul of the person that's making the thing. Like, why do they want to be in the stationary industry?

Why do they believe in analog? Right. Not that, Hey, I'm naming, you know, here's my product lineup. And I've decided to go through these names for this reason. And because that's what marketing says I should do. but that's hard to define in a black and white sense.

So you get a feel, you get a feel for it. it's slow, right? The faster someone goes from the jump, the least likely I am to be excited by what they're doing. If that makes sense. Right. That's a, that's kind of a tell in, in what I, what they believe in.

Right. And I know these are all, like I said, these are all just kind of like nebulous ideas for like the gut feel of it. But I think storytelling is important. and then one thing that's not talked about, really well is like just the, the basic business aspects of it, communication and, follow through and, execution of the sales flow. not everyone does a good job at that, right?

Which those brands end up, you know, losing out in the end because you're adding friction into like a purchasing process. So not only am I looking for like a great story, I'm looking for it to be easy on my account. Right. And, not everyone can do that. Right.

I'm going to give like the most realistic but unhelpful piece of advice when it comes to you have to stand out. That's it. Like, I can't tell you how to do that. Neither of us can. Like, but you, you have to be able to stand out somehow.

Like you've got to set yourself apart somehow. And also, this is the thing you've got to be able to do it, but if you do it for the sake of it, it won't work. Right. You have to be able to stand out from having come up with something that is legitimately different for a good reason.

Right. And one of the comments that comes up, just in the general sense of like the smaller makers is you, you can buy a rainbow swirl stick from anybody. So why do you choose the person that you do? Right. Right. Because there's a lot of like just taking that one particular thing.

There's a lot of materials makers and there's a lot of swirly, swirly pin makers and there's not a lot of different pin shapes. So a lot of people are making similar. So how do you stand out in that? And a lot of it is, I believe like the, the, the harder things such as storytelling and customer service.

Right. What makes you keep going? What makes you get, gain the customer and what keeps that customer coming back? Like obviously, you know, a lot of people are friends, but the company I'm about to mention, they sponsor us from time to time, but Canalea, right? They ostensibly, they are like everybody else, right?

There's like, here is a stick with some swirly colors on it, but they have developed really good marketing around their products of tying it to a story that like each set of colors has a reason. And you can choose one of those that, you know, I like this image.

I like the beach. So I want the one that looks like the beach. I like volcanoes. So I want the one that looks like a volcano, right? Like that, they, they were able to do something pretty cool there and tying it to locations, ideas, that kind of stuff.

And so they were, that was, I think, very good marketing. And when they did that, I didn't know of anybody else that was doing that. It was more just like, Hey, look at this cool blue one that I made. You know what I mean?

So yeah. And the other thing I was, I wasn't thinking about them at all in this commentary, but the one thing that they fit in the thing that I said that I think is a pro is they go slow, right? You're not, we're not inundated with products weekly, right?

So there's a buildup. They bring out now a pair or two a year, right? Right. So that's like, that's what I was talking about. And like, you know, each company has to find their own way in that, but like, that's management of the story and the brand and the product line.

But also each company's has individual goals like that, like Kenalea is in game goal might be different than, you know, brand A's goal on what they're trying to accomplish. So they can do things, choose to do things a different way. So yeah, good point. I think this is a related question from colors and pens who says, following on from a discussion about small makers, how do you think collectors in 50 years from now will see our modern pens when so many of them use the same three nib makers from small maker pens, not in gray pens?

So like, how would, how will these be considered in the future? Like how we think of vintage pens when all that's really different is the design. Right. I, I, it's funny that this question came up because I was actually just thinking about this recently in that like right now, if we as like us, a stationary consumers and community think of vintage pens, right?

We can look at what a company called Parker did and figure out like the lineage of pens and product designs and learn all this information and basically like family tree, like the sourcing of our pen. 50 years from now, is someone going to come across this collection of pens, this pen that a guy had and be able to know what any of this stuff is?

Because most of the companies will be unfundable. Right. Like realistically in 50 years from now, if it's like a one or two person shop and they made some, like some cool product, like that is harder to find. Like the documentation about that is going to be harder to find.

Like they're easy to find online now, but what will that be in 50 years? Yep. I also don't see that as a negative, right? Like I, I'm going to enjoy what I have now. And I, as, as, as a non-maker, like a maker might have a different philosophy on this than me, right?

I'm a consumer and a user of products. So like I'm, I'm more focused on what I'm using now and what I'm going to be using in the near term. a maker may consider this and say, you know, I'm going to look at this a little bit differently. You know, I want to know where this pen is going to be in 50 years.

Let me, you know, put in some effort to, have this, you know, trackable, discoverable information about these products. Cause I don't know, you don't, you don't see that much, these days, you know, some of the, some of the, you know, the big brands that have been around for a while, you can track them pretty well, you know, like a Pelican or a Pilot, things like that.

But like the small makers, no, I, I, that's not going to happen. Probably. I also think it will be easier to get into vintage because you'll be able to more easily fix stuff, right? You'll find a design that you like, Oh, look at this cool old pen. It looks like so awesome.

Like, I love the look of this, but then the nib's broken and you're like, Oh, how do I, you know, like, how do I fix this? Well, if all pens are using nibs from the same companies, there'll be way more of them around. So it may be even easier to deal with vintage pens then.

Yeah. I didn't even think about that part of the question. Like, I, I don't know. Like, I don't, yeah, I don't think it'll be, I don't think it'll be too much of an issue. No. Like you're saying. Yeah. All right. Let's take a break and thank the very fine people over at Penn Chalet for their support. of this show.

Penn Chalet, so authentic, amazing roller balls, fountain pens, ballpoints, mechanical pencils, and so much more. They have all of your favorite brands like Monteverde, Pelican, Lamy, Pilot, Namiki, Sailor Caveco. The list goes on and on and on and on and on and on. It grows all the time.

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It's not just fountain pens. It's not just roller balls. It's also the accessories you're going to want to. Carrying cases, pen holders, refills, inks, converters, and so much more.

Take yourself over to PennChalet.com, P-E-N-C-H-A-L-E-T.com right now and click the podcast link at the top of the website. Enter the password Penn Addict for this week's special offers and to get the code that you need to save 10% on anything at any time at Penn Chalet.

So I got stuck down in the weeds at the bottom of the list today. But back up at the top, the Kakamori pigment inks. If you are into inks, into ink testing, and you have the right accessories and right tools, meaning like glass dip nib pens, folded nibs, Kakamori dip nibs, these pigment inks are fun to use.

And they're not really necessarily fountain pen friendly. I think these might you can use in fountain pens, but I would use them more from an artistic perspective. But this is a really, really good ink from a good company and at a good price. One of the pens I've had on my list that I don't think I'll ever buy, but I always consider it has popped up on the Penn Chalet deals page in Salami Dialogue CC.

So the Dialogue was their twist retractable pen. And I've owned one, owned one for years. And it's a good pen technically. It was just too wide, too big for me.

The CC narrowed it down, I think, a little bit and simplified the design. And it's kind of cool. Like, I'm not willing to rethink it yet and put it back on the shopping list. But you don't often get a sale on this pen.

And I know a lot of people are interested in the CC. And yeah, that's pretty good. And then they have up. So one brand I haven't used is the Pen Lux before.

But they have some cool designs that are on the sale page here on Penn Chalet. So it might be something. It might be a perfect opportunity for me to pick one up for review. So I'm checking on that.

And then what I got stuck on on the bottom. There was some Visconti's Ron stuck here in the bottom. Like, I'm not in the market for Visconti right now. But there's some really good deals.

The, oh, where did it go? I just passed it up. The Kaleido, the orange one, is a really, really good price right now. The Fire Opal model has caught my eye and got me very distracted while you were reading the ad there.

So yeah, there you go. Lots of good stuff on there. And I want to thank Penn Chalet for their, like, 10 years of sponsoring the show, too. Amazing. Thank you, Ron. Appreciate you. Thank you. P-E-N-C-H-A-L-E-T dot com.

Go there right now. Hit the password link at the top of the website. Use the password Penn Addict. And you can help support Penn Chalet.

And they help support this show, too. Our thanks to Penn Chalet for the continued support of the Penn Addict. All right. Next question. Keep on going. Yeah. Sure. Comes from Jessica, who says, With wild inflation, increasing prices of materials like gold, etc., the cost of entry to the hobby is rising.

And many newcomers will not have as easy access to higher-end pens than we have before. For example, seven or eight years ago, a 14-carat gold Pro Gear Slim was less than $150 brand new. Nowadays, it's impossible. Even acrylic steel nib pens are often $200. What are your thoughts on making this hobby more accessible to everyone?

What are some innovations that you really hope to see happen in the stationary industry as a whole? Not just fountain pens, but paper, ink, standard pens, accessories, etc. Can I just start this by saying a thing? If we're assuming that part of the reason the prices have increased is because of materials going up in price, there is nothing that can be done to make it more accessible.

Like, you can't find a cheaper gold. Like, if gold is the bottleneck, like, that's it, right? Like, the way it's accessible is there's just more prices at lower levels, which there already is anyway. But if, like, what you're looking for is, oh, we want to go back to the days when gold nibs were cheaper, that time is probably gone.

Like, unfortunately, that's just the reality. So the solution is find new materials, right? Which, that's pretty tough in an industry that's, like, from a nib perspective is pretty resistant to change in nib materials. Like, that's kind of been solved, right?

Steel, gold, and then a few other outliers like titanium. So I don't know that there's anyone's working on, like, a different material type of thing. So I think just from the entry points and thinking about newcomers and what they're looking at when they get into the hobby, I still think there are such good accessible options, like, in the non-gold nib category, at price points that are still, people are still willing to make a jump on a $5 pin or a $20 pin or a $50 pin to see what they like, see if they find a benefit in analog tools, and then start the discovery process.

And I think to Jessica's point, and this is something that I'm feeling, I think once you discover, okay, I'm in. Like, I'm in on stationery. Like, I like pens. I like fountain pens.

I want to start discovering. I do think that when we saw, it's been years since we saw, like, our first price increases, I do think some of us in the more experienced end of the hobby will buy less, more than we will see a lack of newcomers coming to the hobby, right?

Like, I'm not going to buy as many sailors because of the price changes that we're having. But I also don't think that's the space the newcomers are starting with and being turned off from, if that makes sense, right? I still think we have the opportunities for newcomers to have something interesting and compelling and customizable with, you know, a TWSBI Eco and a stub nib and a bottle of ink for, you know, less than $50.

And then I think a lot of people are stopping there. This goes back to Damien's question earlier about, you know, the hobby boom that we saw, like, in COVID. There were so many people discovering pens at that time. And a lot of people have found what they wanted just from that entry-level spot, right?

Those are the stories I get. And, like, that's okay. Like, that's still people, like, using the stuff and talking about the stuff. But they may not have gone into, like, the Pen Addict podcast realm where we're talking about the, like, the tier, several tiers up from where they started from.

So I think the newcomers still have it okay. I do think the, and I think we have a question about this later, about the, say, like, the sailor, just to, not to call them out specifically, but just using them as a jumping off point for later. The price points, like, I used to buy several sailors a year.

And now, like, I might buy one, right? Just because the price is expensive. It's not always in the budget anymore. So innovation-wise, I think that's actually a harder question.

We talk about this frequently. Man, we're doing a pretty good job right now. You know, the smaller makers are driving some of the innovation that might trickle up to the bigger makers. Yeah, I don't know that there's a specific thing that I could say.

I will always want to see more in the standard pens market, right? Alluding to an answer I gave earlier. There's little to no change. Just take the Pilot G2, for example.

I, they're very content being the number one selling gel ink pen on the market. So what reason do they have to change? But could they do more? I would like to see it.

I don't know what specifically that would be. But, like, it's time for an update on a lot of these standard pens that are on the store shelves. I think fountain pens, paper ink, accessories, there's a lot of good change going on right now. Standard pens, they're a lot slower to move for reasons that I don't fully grasp.

Marco asks, if you were a consultant to a fountain pen manufacturer, what advice would you give them regarding their product mix and designs, assuming they want to grow in the future? How would your advice differ depending on key markets worldwide? I don't have an answer for this, I'll tell you that.

I actually do have an answer for this. Of course you do. It's not easy, though. And some companies actually do this now, but I think more companies could do this.

And to the question, I'm thinking more about your bigger established companies, your Lamy's, your sailors. I'm not talking about, like, necessarily like a small maker, like a Franklin Kristoffer and Edison. But I think these bigger makers, and, like, if I was going into a business that's established, say, like a hundred-year-old fountain pen business that wants to ensure their next hundred years are good and stable, and I'm the consultant for that job.

I really am impressed by other companies that have a full product funnel from the beginner item all the way to the premium item. And not a lot of companies do that well. Pilot is such a beloved company because they get them young, they get them inexpensive, they provide an elite product experience, and then people get used to the name brand.

And when they're ready to move on or explore, they don't have to look outside the brand to find the next step. And then they're happy with that next step, and then they want more, and then there's a next step. And there's a very clear path that Pilot has in their product lineup all the way from, like, the most basic Kakunos, or even they have some even more expensive, less expensive pens than that, all the way up into, like, the Namiki, you know, tens of thousands of dollars pens.

And not that everyone's going to take, like, the full path, but they have it covered. Like, there's this opportunity there. And I think a lot of companies don't. I think Sailor has a huge failing on the low-end product.

They do great on the gold nibs and up products. I think they have a very poor entry-level lineup. I think Platinum and Pilot have far, far, far superior entry-level products than Sailor. So that's what I would see if, like, we need to start the Sailor Hire Me campaign as opposed to the Lamy Hire Me campaign because that Lamy, that's something that they do reasonably well.

I think there's a couple of smaller changes I would think about with Lamy. But, like, Sailor's actually one that I am most concerned is not the right word because they're a behemoth of a company. They're not going anywhere. I think they're due some innovation in their lower-end product lineup that we're not seeing right now.

So that's what I see. Like, this full product, like, funnel from the beginning to the end. If someone wants to jump in in the beginning and start a discovery process, are you providing a great experience for that? Some companies do and some companies don't.

So that's – if I was consulting, that's where I'm – that's what I'm looking at, right? And then on the lower end, why the low end is important to me is because that's where companies can experiment and see what succeeds and what fails. Yeah. And then they can take those successes and matriculate them up the product line, right?

Like, oh, we tried this one thing. It went really well. How would this work for the rest of our product line? So it's twofold. It's the internal processes of learning, testing, innovating, taking them to market, seeing what people like.

Not only do the customers get something cool to try out and maybe they fall in love with your brand, you now have, you know, your lab work is done and you can take the results and put them throughout the rest of the product line. So that's what I'm looking at.

And I feel like initially I was like, isn't this just going to dilute the Omega brand, right? Like, because you're making these watches that look like Omegas, but they are a tenth of the value. And it's created like a real, like people really dig these watches and like, and it hasn't affected, I don't think it's in my mind anyway, affected Omega.

I think it's created more hype around them. And so I think now people get into these because they're like, oh, it's like a $250 watch that looks really cool. And then they use that is like they're onboarding to maybe one day getting a Speedmaster or a Railmaster, you know?

So that's really changed my personal opinion of this kind of idea because I can see a scenario, right? Where, and I still think this could happen, where you end up, if you want to be a high-end brand, but then you create a cheap product, you are diluting the brand.

Like that is, it's a thing that can happen, right? Like if Sailor want to be known as making really high-end products, but then they make more entry-level products, then it changes, it changes the company, right? And how people perceive it. And, but I do think it can be done well.

And like where you're not changing the perception of the brand from being a high-end product, even though you offer more of a range of materials and goods. Yeah, so let me tell you a brand that actually does it well, just kind of starting higher and not really, and being okay with not having as much entry-level opportunity is Montegrappa.

They pretty much start at like $200 and up for steel knit pens. And there might be something I'm missing that's a very low end, but like that, I don't even know what it is to talk about it. Kind of tells you everything, but they've leaned into exactly what they are and have said, hey, you know, when you figure it out, come over here, we might have something for you.

Like they, but they've, that's, I think that's probably pretty rare that they don't have like this direct line, you know, from, from entry-level up to, up to the chaos pen. But have proven to be very successful in what they do offer. So, yeah, it's, it's interesting. There's obviously not one way to do everything, but, you know, that's kind of the way I see it in the, in, in the broader sense of things.

Kay Autic wants to know, what is the worst stationary marketing that you've seen besides the scribble pen? It's the Visionaire without question. Visionaire is up there. I'm going to throw in a special mention for the, the coffee macchiato retro 51.

I'm never going to let it go. I forgot about that. Really bad. I mean, a lot of Kickstarter stuff isn't great, but that's just kind of part of the beast. I probably shouldn't count Kickstarter.

But yeah, when you literally don't know what you're selling and succeed, it will drive me crazy. Like that was the worst marketing I've ever seen. I mean, it was bad for us. It obviously was, it worked though, right?

Like that's, that's the bad, that's like the even worst part of it is the marketing was actually good. So it was great marketing. Yes, it was great marketing. We just didn't like it.

Yeah. But yeah, there's been some, there's been some clangers over the years. That's for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. That's the only one that kind of stuck in my head. I can't, I can't get past just to like how, how terrible that was from, from just a, a knowledge and technical perspective.

Yep. It's unbelievable. Unbelievable. 10 Kim asks, has being a content creator and having your income come from that, does it take the fun out of the hobby for you? Is it more of a job or do you still find excitement and joy from it? It has not taken the fun out of it for me.

There, I don't want to pretend that there's not challenging days and maybe challenging days. Challenging months or challenging years. It is, I have so much fun doing this. I said it a thousand times.

I can't not do this. If I wasn't doing this, I'd still be doing it. Yeah. There is work. The work part of it is like hard sometimes. Like I had a really tough work day yesterday.

Just, I have a big list of things I need to get done and I couldn't get them all done because I had other life things getting in the way. And like, and that's fine. But I get really frustrated when I can't do my, the job portion of my job.

But that never, that, it doesn't really cross over to the fun I get out of the stuff and the things and the talking about stuff and stationery as a whole. And, you know, give me, you know, washi tape and stickers and $1 pencils and, you know, bank ballpoints and $1,000 pens and, you know, crazy notebooks.

And I'm just happy, happy all the time about this stuff. Like I, I have never lost my love for stationery and not even close. Like it's, it's never even been a question. It does like the, the work part of it, since it is my job, that's always going to be a challenge, right?

To a degree. So that's just something that's a, that's a constant work in progress as I'm sure a lot of y'all can relate to. The idea of do something you love and you'll never work it in your life is categorically untrue. It is untrue. It's a lie that people spread.

It is terrible because it's not the case because if something is your job, it has job elements to it. It's not always the fun part. Like, right. There, there are things that you have to do and deal with, right? Like if you think about anything that you consider to be the best job in the world, think about the inevitable bad parts, right?

So think about people like, oh, being an actor, right? Being in a movie. What about if your movie fails? Like it bombs, it's bad.

You don't think that feels like work? I mean, that doesn't feel like a dream when you're going through that, right? Like any of these things, right? Like we, we are, we are in the position where we get to make a living from the things that we love.

And as you said, I couldn't imagine doing anything else, but it's not like this doesn't feel like a job and it does change your relationship to it. And the reason it feels like a job is because it is my job. And so it has jobby things. It has responsibilities.

It has things that I need to do and take care of things, choices that I have to make that I maybe otherwise wouldn't decide to do in my life. You know, like all this kind of stuff. It's all in there. But there is not another job in the world that I would rather do.

Absolutely. Like without question, this is what I want to do. And so it, yes, it does change your relationship to it because sometimes there are things that you do or don't do. Or even like for you, like products that you try that might frustrate you or annoy you that you otherwise wouldn't, you know, like stuff like that.

But as far as it being a job, it's the best job that we could wish for. But it's still a job. And anybody that tells you that's not true is a liar, in my opinion. Or they are seriously deluded in some way.

Carol asks, after 599 episodes, Penn, Inc. Stationery. After 599 episodes of Penn, Inc. Stationery, with all honesty, what keeps you motivated to be inspired to discuss these writing instruments without ever finding you repeat yourselves or getting tired of the sameness and maintaining your excitement? What continues to get you at the microphone and discuss what's happening?

And as a caveat, not just the latest product or color, I will start and just say it's you, Brad. For me. Interesting. I wouldn't do this to anybody else. I wouldn't care enough. Like, I think listeners of the show understand that, like, my interest in, like, writing equipment has changed over the years.

Like, I don't really buy things anymore. Now, I'm really just mostly interested in the discussion around the things that businesses are doing, right? Like, that's now. Because, I mean, I've always cared about that stuff anyway. But that is mostly what I am here for now.

It's like to think about that, talk about that, debate that with you. But, like, you are the reason I do this. I want to spend time with you. You're one of my best friends.

And this is the easiest way to do that. So, simple. Well, I could just continue that on and suck up to you. But I'm going to suck up to our listeners, Myke. And that's what keeps me motivated to do this.

The people in this hobby industry, podcast, blog, everything that we do are 100% what keeps me going. The curiosity that people have, the interests that people show, the care that people show, not just me, you, that they show the others in this community. That's what keeps me going.

And if I can provide those people some information every now and then when they need it, I am super glad to do it. And that's really what keeps me going, right? Like, you know, like I can have all the products in the world. But if I'm not satisfied, if, you know, my friends that are listening aren't satisfied and aren't happy.

So, yeah, that's really what keeps me going is the people. And I guess that includes you. Fine, Myke. Fine. Ink Explorer knows, would you ever become a brand ambassador? No. I would if it was the right partnership.

If it was my only job, I would do it. It's harder for you. It's harder for you. Yeah, I'm a big editorial freedom guy.

I'm not. So, if I left, like if everything ended and I went to work for Lamy, right? Sure. Like, I could do that. That's not going to happen, right? We just joke about that.

I could not do that as like part of what I do because there's a certain freedom I afford myself to speak freely. That, yeah, that wouldn't behoove brands to work with me. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, I would do it if the opportunity was right.

Yeah, I turn those things down all the time. I turn lots of things down just because of that. It makes sense what you do. It makes sense what you do.

It's one of the easiest questions I can answer. I'm very clear in this and with myself. You know what I say, Brad? Ethics schmethics. That's what I say.

You know? Get that back. Yeah, Myke can be bought. I can be bought. I can have a conversation. Brad, everybody's got a price.

Don't even. Everyone's got a price. That's why I said I left the door. Ted DBRC was right. Everybody has a price.

I left the door. I left the door open. I left the door open. Sandra asks, what are your thoughts on the future of pen shows?

In order to bring in more attendees, did they need to pivot to being more of a convention type setup with panels and workshops? The shows are all competing for the same vendors and sometimes the same attendees. How do they differentiate themselves? I think Sandra asked her own question in the question, right?

I know. I always love this question. This is something we talk about probably at least once a year as I go to shows. I used to be really on the con bandwagon, right? I think that's what we need as a pen show experience and really on to that.

Not that I'm backing off of that completely, but I think what we have now is good if we could add more experience stuff with what we have without turning into a con. I kind of mean that in a non-pen show related experiences, location. Is there something I can do for a day outside of the pen show?

Which is not what retailers or showrunners want to hear. They want you in the building at all times. But if I can go for three days and have one day to be convenient for me to actually get me in those other two days of the show, maybe that's what I'm looking for now.

And things change over time. I think as much as I want the con model, I don't think that works for the retailers and you need the retail buy-in on something like that. That's a really, really tough sell. I think experience is the important part.

I do. And I think it is having some workshops and some panels. And I feel like retailers would understand that that brings more people and that's the most important thing. I don't think that you want to just do that, right? But there should be some of that.

So if you're going to be there for two or three days, you cannot go to a pen show for more than one day and keep having stuff to look at. Yes. You will run out. So having social events or things that can fill a couple of hours here or there, I think that that is pretty key to making this a destination thing rather than just a it's in my town thing.

And so I do think that having some kind of experiential part of a pen show is really important. If you want to build your show to be one that people travel to, which you don't have to have. I actually don't think they can't all be that way and they shouldn't.

But maybe some of the bigger shows are the shows that have opportunity to do so. That's how you do it. But otherwise, I think it is actually good in a way for some shows to differentiate themselves as local shows and what that means. Yep. Agree with all that.

So more experiences and they can be within the shows. So, yeah, good stuff. Sayendev asks, why have the larger pen manufacturers seemingly given up on fundamental innovations? New nibs, feeds and filling mechanism designs are mostly coming from small, often one person outfits.

Impressive though their ingenuity is they don't have the capital to do repeated iterations of design or take advantage of economies of scale. So excited for this question. All right. Love this question. Not that I have an answer, but this is something I've been thinking about for probably better part of a year, if not two.

And how does brand A continue? And I'm not, again, like Sayendev saying, not the small makers. I'm talking about like what we would consider like a pen business. You know, all your Italian brands, you know, Japanese brands, all the bigger brands, the larger companies that we think of.

Not like the small individual makers. How do they keep making the same model every year and then just switching up the colors, right? Like, you know, like a sailor, sailor aspect or like a Leonardo aspect. So like someone like Leonardo has done a good job where they started with some standards, like two or three shapes, lots of colorful acrylics.

Then through the years, they modified the shapes. Then through the years, they modified the shapes. They added in piston fillers. They added in gold nib options.

They changed the sizes. Sizes are big. They always seem to kind of like make small improvements to make their pens better. And then some other companies will just take, and this is not a knock on them. They'll just take their core model and introduce new colors throughout the year.

Like that's fine too. So this is where I have to keep in mind that there's always new people coming into the hobby, right? Like this is one thing you can't ever forget. No matter what I want Brand A to do, Brand A knows better than me in general, right?

They understand their business. They understand the customer acquisition. They understand that they got to keep their existing customers happy too. So I think the innovation in the technical format has become really cost prohibitive for a lot of these companies unless they're the biggest.

And even then they don't want to spend on that amount of the level of research. I think we forget sometimes how small even the biggest companies are. I forget the number when Pelican got sold early this year. Joshua Danley at the Pelican's Perch had the fine writing segment of the company.

Whatever millions of dollars it was was a way smaller millions of dollars than I thought it would be. Kind of in an astonishing sense. And it makes you think that like we, I don't want to say we're lucky to get what we get, but I do understand the innovation limits for what is like the most niche of writing segments that these businesses have, right?

So it's a tough question. I love this question. I think about it a lot. What keeps me interested in, you know, the main brands, new color of the new pin every year.

And to be honest, sometimes I'm not interested. And you know what? That's okay, right? That's like totally okay. You know, things ebb and flow throughout the years as we go.

And, you know, you take a break from them. And then maybe they come back later with some design tweaks, some change, and it gets you interested again. And like, that's okay. I don't need every company to fulfill every need every month of the year for me, right?

Like, it's okay if I don't buy a sailor this year or next year. You know, eventually there might be something I like later. It's okay if, you know, like I found, you know, something else that I like from a different brand and don't buy from this one brand this year.

Like, that's okay. Like, so I don't have a great question other than the, like the fundamental innovations. I don't want to say everything's solved. I don't believe that's the case. I do believe it is very cost prohibitive in that we oftentimes think these companies are bigger and more flush with cash to burn on experiments than they really are.

I'm not sure I have much of a thought around this. Yeah. It's a tough question. I feel like, to me, the question itself is inherently making a decision about the fact that there's no innovation inside of large companies. And I'm not sure that that's, I'm just not sure that's completely accurate.

Yeah. Right. I think it, I just, I do think it's smaller. Like the Leonardo. But true innovation takes a long time. Yes. It's smaller. Hey, never forget about the Curidas. You know what I'm saying?

It's always out there. Like that's why I love the Curidas, right? Maybe not technically, but the concept of it, that they actually did that was massive. And look at them now.

It probably did not work, right? And I think that's part of it. Like there is, there is a limit for innovation in fountain pens, right? Like there is a limit, but it's, but like, if you look at pens in general, we have the friction, right?

Right. I went for a meeting with my printer today and explained to them that thing. I thought it was very funny. That person, by the way, Brad, they, they, I told them and they, they, they, they sent me more like images of still doing it. I'm like, but I don't know what's going on with you.

Yeah. But at this point, I'm like, I'm kind of just like, if you want to refund, let me know. We can sort it out. I don't design with every pen in mind. And I've, I've not gotten anyone else to reproduce this issue of erasing the ink.

But yeah, I mean, like there are innovations. There may be not fast, big sweeping, like, but they're there. barrier Rose asks with the close of Bromfeld, Apple bomb in Boston and the boom of online retailers is the future of brick and mortar pen life in pen shows, not pen shops.

Yeesh. It's a good question. retail's hard. Physical retail's hard. Physical retail is brutal. to have the wherewithal, the nerve and the right blood pressure medications to do that is a rare combination. there are newer companies that have seemingly found something in their brick and mortar locations. I'm looking at Yoseka, you know, stationary, but then you just have to look across town to CW pencil enterprises.

That was a beloved company and found that the business is just not sustainable, right? It's not easy. So is the future pen shows, not pen shops. I don't want to say it because I don't want to believe it because like I, when I went to Atlas stationers, I learned, and I've, I've known this every pen shop that I've visited, visited.

How valuable those shops are to the communities that they reside in. Yep. And not just to the pen people that are there. Right. and this goes for every shop I've visited, you know, drum goals, van S and on and on and on. Wonder pens. I'm sure I'm leaving many out that they get as much out of being in those communities and those communities get a much about having those stores there as the stationary lovers get from being able to walk down the street to the, to the shop or travel across town to the shop or things like that.

So it's hard. I don't know what the future is. No one can predict that, especially in the brick and mortar retail space. it's gotta be one of the toughest spaces, but it can be done. It will not be easy. and I guess this is the big catch and probably to Barry Rose's point, all of these stores have a thriving online business as well.

Yep. Every one of them. So I don't know. Maybe that, that, goes more to the, to the point of the question is, is the future shows, not shops or online? I don't know. I don't know. I just think there's such a valuable asset to the community, that I would hate to see.

I, I'm always excited to support brick and mortar because it's such a unique and necessary, aspect for a lot of these communities and a lot of these spaces. So I'm, I would hate to see, I always hate to see them close and go, but I, I get it because it is really freaking hard, really freaking hard to manage.

All right. Last question to Myke. I think I had the most trouble with this one out of all the questions. What's the Stanley Tumblr of the stationary world? What useful tool or item for pen people do you think could become a craze?

So this is from my friend Corolla. I have been, I wrote all kinds of notes for all kinds of these questions. I have yet to write anything down for this one. Do you have any suggestions?

No. I mean, it's, it's some kind of like, you know what? I actually do know what it is. I, I, I just came up with an idea too. So what do you have?

Shimmer inks. Okay. I think it, so here's the thing. Friend of the show, Carrie, chief sales officer. She bought a first fountain pen. She bought a Kaveco, as you do.

And she was asking me about shimmer inks. And I was like, I said, I said, like, right from the jump. You know, I don't know. Like, you know, I was just like, she asked, basically had a couple, she was interested in shimmer inks, but then also like a, just like a, just a nice, just a nice purple ink.

And I was like, I think you should get that one. I was like, as, as to start out with, keep it simple for yourself. Maybe advance there later on that. I'm going to go with not just shimmery inks.

Like I don't mean, I mean like with particles in right. Like glittery inks that that's what I think is going on there. Yeah. I don't know. I think those are pretty well established and, and I don't know that there's more of a craze than there's already been. I don't know.

I felt like I was going to get off of rocket book joke here before the episode ended. And I don't know. This seemed like a good spot maybe. but I'm trying to think of something like more particular. God, I'm going to have to think about this. yeah.

Like I tried, I tried what, what I might have to workshop this one. I'll, I'll come back to you. I'm like, what's the Stanley Tumbrer of the stationary world? As a, as the, the father of a 17 year old daughter, I'm very vested in the Stanley Tumbrer world.

Yeah. I think that we have four in the house. Oh my God. That's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. so yeah. but what would the stationary comparison be? I don't know. I have to think about that. Oh, you know what it could be?

Go on. I'm telling, I'm telling on myself here. and someone's probably yelled this at their, plotter. The plotters definitely had like a little bit of hype. Oh, that's good. Yeah. And, and you know, every little, every show they have, they're, they do a good job of like doing the promotions.

And the accessories, right? Cause that's a big thing with the Stanleys. Yeah. See, I'm going to just told myself here. Brad, I'm going to say it.

All right. I'm just going to say it now. Everyone get off my back. All right. I'm going to say it. Hobonichi. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Definitely. I love them. Great. But similar, right? Like big hype. And there's a bunch of stuff that goes with the thing and most people buy it and they, I would expect most people that buy a Hobonichi end up not using it by the end of the year. so maybe, you know, maybe we can put bullet journaling in here too.

Yeah. It's like one part useful, one part status, right? Like that's the, that's the thing with like the Stanley Tumblr. Like, okay, technically this is a heck of a good product. Right. But then now there's also like a status applied to it, you know, just in the craze part of it.

Yeah. I total myself on this one. Great show, Myke. What a great way to end. Happy 600. Getting ourselves in some trouble. What a great way to end.

Love it. everybody, thank you so much for listening to episode 600 of the Pen Addict. And for wherever it is you joined us on this journey, we appreciate you. There is no show without you. Like we need to be here, but if we're not here, I was like, if we're here and you're not listening, there's no show.

There's no point. It's just me and Brett having a conversation at that point, which while fun, wouldn't really make sense to record. So thank you so much for your continued support of what we do, in all of the forms in which you support us, which is by listening to this show, supporting our sponsors, buying our products, listening to our other shows, watching our Twitch streams, reading blogs, all that kind of stuff.

Like, thank you so much for your continued support. It is truly incredible to be here 12 years later and to be still doing this thing. So I want to find Brad. In the meantime, go to the picture of the website, penaddict.com.

You can also find Brad online. He is at penaddict and over at twitch.tv slash penaddict. I am at imyke, I-M-Y-K-E and my products are at cortexbrand.com. Go to spokedesign.com for some wonderful pens, mechanical pencils.

Thank you to Pen Chalet for their support of this week's episode. But as always, thank you for listening. Until next time, say goodbye, Brad. Goodbye, Brad.