The Pen Addict 252/transcript

The Pen Addict Podcast Transcript
Episode:	252
Title:	We All Know the Pencil Is Superior to the Pen
Release Date:	April 13th, 2017
Hosts:	Brad Dowdy Myke Hurley
Guests:	Caroline Weaver
Additional Information
Official page:	Episode 252
Audio File:	Audio Episode 252
Podcast page:	The Pen Addict 252
Length:	8787 min <br />1.45 h <br /> minutes
Previous Transcript	Next Transcript

Myke Hurley: From RelayFM, this is The Pen Addict, episode 252, The Calm Before the Storm. My name is Myke Hurley. Today, our show is brought to you by Pen Chalet, Harry's, and Mac Weldon. And I am joined by Mr. Brad Dowdy. Hello, Mr. Dowdy.

Brad Dowdy: Hello, Mr. Hurley. Are you okay today?

Myke Hurley: Yeah, I just got back from a conference, so I have lost my voice, basically, which is good, because nobody wants to hear from me today, because we have a very special guest, don't we, Mr. Dowdy?

Brad Dowdy: We do. This has been a long time coming, and we are super, super excited to have Caroline Weaver from CW Pencil Enterprises on. Hey, Caroline, how are you?

Caroline Weaver: Hi, I'm good, thank you. Excited to be here.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, we are excited to have you and talk about you and your background and everyone's favourite stationery store on the planet. I've never heard anything less than that, and I'm sure you haven't either from all your visitors and customers and fans out there. So thanks so much for finding the time out of your busy schedule to do this.

Caroline Weaver: Yeah, anything for you guys. Aw.

Brad Dowdy: We appreciate it. Even though we like pens, mostly? Like, we use pens all the time, that's okay? Like, we can get through this?

Caroline Weaver: Yeah, that's okay. I forgave you a long time ago. Oh, okay. That's okay.

Brad Dowdy: We appreciate that. So one of the things that we wanted to do when having you on is a lot of our readers, listeners, aren't necessarily familiar with pencils or your story or the store or how things came about. So we want to take it way back and get you to tell some stories. You've probably told it in other places, but it's new to our audience. So we want to talk about, you know, how you got into pencils and stationery and the formation of CW Pencil Enterprises and the brick and mortar and all these things. But I guess to kick it off, how did this start, like, in your life? Like, for me, you know, pens was a lifelong thing when I was a kid. You know, I remember vivid. I have, like, vivid pen and pencil and stationery memories. Do you have these types of things, like, in your background with pencils or other stationery items?

Caroline Weaver: Yeah, I definitely do. I grew up in a really small town in Ohio, and my mother is an interior designer, and she used to work from our house. She used to have her drafting table in our dining room, and she's very messy. So there were just, like, pencils everywhere all the time. And I think being around that definitely had a lifelong impact on me. And not just that, but she had good pencils, ones that she would travel to, like, other towns to find. And when I was really young, she brought back a set of Caran d'Ache colored pencils from a trip to Italy, which is the object that I remember being, like, the first object that I loved. Like, the first object that, as, like, a very young child, I didn't want to ruin. And that was a big thing. I still have that set of colored pencils. But my dad, too. My dad was an engineer, and he was really into office supplies. When my parents divorced and he was first trying to figure out, like, how to do Christmas as a single dad, he would just go to Staples and buy, like, random office supplies to put in our stockings. He would just put, like, rolls of, like, scotch tape or, like, those, like, clicky Pilot gel pens and, like, boxes of Staples and, like, those really weird tiny, like, mini staplers. Like, really, really random just, like, quotidian average office supplies. And so I think my love for pencils comes less from, like, an art background and more from, like, I just like these things as objects background. But, yeah, I've just been using them almost exclusively my whole life. And I'm collecting stories and, like, learning more about them and discovering ones in other places. And it took a really long time for me to kind of, like, actually realize that it had become, like, my thing.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, I think that that's a thing we see. Like, you don't realize it at the time, obviously. But, you know, 10 and 15, 20 years later, like, wait a minute. Back when I was a kid, I used to, like, really obsess over this silly stuff. And I would be pretty excited to get a stocking full of stationery, which is kind of what I do for my kids now. Which that made me laugh when you were saying that. I was like, yeah, I'm kind of that guy. I know, sticking the rainbow gel ink pens and the magic pencils and all kinds of things like that. Caroline, were you allowed to use all of the pencils?

Caroline Weaver: When I was a kid?

Myke Hurley: Yeah.

Caroline Weaver: Yeah, I was allowed to use all the pencils. My mom didn't have any rules about that. The one thing that I was not allowed to use was the electric eraser.

Caroline Weaver: She had one of those erasers that you plug into the wall. They still make them, but they're, like, battery operated now.

Myke Hurley: I've never heard of this before.

Caroline Weaver: Yeah, you use them, like, for, like, I don't really understand even now, like, what the advantage of. I guess it's just, like, a lazy person's eraser. I'm not sure. If anybody knows what these things are actually used for, please correct me. But, yeah, it just, like, vibrates. And it's this giant, it was, like, this giant thing that you have to, like, hold in your hand. And it's not small at all. And it has, like, a stick of eraser in it. And it just, like, vibrates. And it was really fun to play with. I would just, like, use up the whole eraser, just, like, erasing the surface of the table. So I wasn't allowed to use that. That was the only rule.

Brad Dowdy: So when you were young, were you doing any particular thing with, like, the pencils and the colored pencils? Were you more of into art and drawing? Or were you into writing and journaling? Did you have any particular thing that you did over and over again?

Caroline Weaver: Yeah, I did draw a lot when I was a kid. And I wrote a lot. I always kept a diary. In my house, my mom always said that the two things that she would buy us without question always were books and art supplies. That those were, like, the two things that she would never hesitate about buying us whenever we wanted. And so we had lots of art supplies when I was a kid. Way more than toys. It was just art supplies everywhere.

Brad Dowdy: That's awesome. Yeah, you can't really go wrong with that. And, like, I wish I could do that more these days. And, you know, maybe I should implement that in my household.

Caroline Weaver: It's a little harder now, though.

Brad Dowdy: It totally is. Especially when your kids are 10 and 8. They're like, we practiced handwriting this weekend because they wanted to do it. Like, that is super cool. But then after that, you know, it was on to the video games or whatever they're into. And we'll talk about that later, how, you know, these analog tools are making a comeback and seeing some inroads in our own personal lives and in other people's lives in this digital day and time. But besides the Caran d'Ash, were there any, like, particular items that you really, really latched on to? Have you, and related to this, have you heard of the Yikes pencil?

Caroline Weaver: Yes, I have heard of the Yikes pencil.

Brad Dowdy: So that's Myke's go-to memory, right, Myke? Yep. That was your pencil growing up.

Myke Hurley: Yeah. I mean, it was my first, basically my first own pencil and fountain pen. I bought a set. And I ended up finding it years later, right? Like, I found the set that I had. It was the fountain pen of knowledge. And it came in a little kit with these crazy pencils. But Yikes were like, they were a huge thing from when I was growing up.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. Yeah. So did you love anything besides those Caran d'Ash colored pencils, Caroline?

Caroline Weaver: Oh, geez. I had, well, I loved my teal glittery Spacemaker pencil box. And those were the ones that had, like, these dots on them. They were, like, very textured. They had, like, dots on the top. They were plastic. And then the middle and the indented part where it says Spacemaker on it, it was, like, the thing to do to, like, color it with marker. And then pour Elmer's glue into it. And you'd, like, let it dry. And you'd peel it out. And it was, like, the shape of a bookmark. You could make these, like, glue bookmarks.

Brad Dowdy: Nice.

Caroline Weaver: I don't know who came up with that idea. It's very creative. It was not me. But I always had those at school. And in my town, we had a teacher's store, this, like, store that sold teacher's supplies. I was in an old house. It was in, like, this creepy old house. And every room sold, like, different things. And there was just one lady working there all the time. So all these rooms were just, like, unattended. And you had to, like, walk around the whole house to find them. And there was some weird stuff in there. Lots of good novelty pencils. That's where we'd go to buy Stetro grips, which we saw them. They're, like, these, like, tiny grips that have these weird-looking divots in them that are meant to help you hold your pencil the right way.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, I remember having, like, some of, like, the triangular ones. Are these different than that?

Caroline Weaver: They're a little bit different. They're a little bit more advanced. They're kind of, like, it's, like, the thing. It's, like, embarrassing if you have to use one of those at school. It's, like, a bad sign if, like, you're the kid who has this, like, awkward-looking grip. And that was always me. I had a pink one.

Brad Dowdy: But I remember those teacher supply stores. Those were, like, my mecca when I was younger because I could always get not only, like, pens and pencils you couldn't find at, you know, an office supply store or the grocery store or wherever. You could accidentally run into something. But, like, I could get the scratch and stiff stickers and all kinds of weird things that teachers would use. I would just load up on all that junk that I didn't need. And apparently I still kind of do that today. So, did you, as you were getting older and going through school and things like that, did you keep using, you know, all these pens and pencils you were growing up with and that continued to be a thing? Was there ever any kind of drop-off where, I don't really care what I'm writing with or did it just kind of stick with you?

Caroline Weaver: I mean, not really even. And I, even in, like, high school, I never really used mechanical pencils at all. Didn't really even use pens. And I don't know, I don't even know exactly why it stuck with me because that was before I even realized that it was, like, a thing that I did. And I'd sharpen my pencils before school and I'd bring them to school sharpened with the intention of not having to sharpen them all day. It was just kind of like a really important ritual in my mornings. But in college, too, I went to college in London. So, I traveled a lot. I basically just got a degree in traveling. I didn't go to school that much. And that's when I really started to discover all these, like, different brands from different places that I'd never seen before. And that's when I kind of realized, okay, like, this is the thing that I'm interested in.

Brad Dowdy: That is, okay, I didn't realize that. So, that's pretty cool. So, getting, you know, that travel bug early and discovering those things that you can't get at home, I think that's a pretty awesome way to kind of say, hey, there's more stuff out there. Like, it took me a while to figure out there was more stuff out there because I didn't travel. And I think that makes sense to see what other countries and cultures and people have to offer. And then when you graduated, you said, I'm going to open a pencil store. Is that the line that this took?

Caroline Weaver: Kind of, yeah. I mean, the idea first came about when I was in college. And it was just sort of a joke that if I could just, like, make up what my job would be, it would be this, that I would be sitting in a pencil store talking about pencils all day. It was truly, like, a joke or an idea for, like, a retirement job. I thought that would be nice to be an old lady in a very tiny pencil shop. Yeah, it was just, like, a really silly fantasy for a really long time.

Pen Chalet

Brad Dowdy: This is, I think this is what we want to dig into. I want to, I got some questions about this. So, Myke, before I go off the rails completely, won't you let everyone know about our first sponsor? And that's our good friends at Harry's.

Myke Hurley: For decades, big razor companies have been increasing prices at the expense of their customers. So Jeff and Andy decided that they wanted to create Harry's to stop this trend. And as Brad mentioned, they are supporting this week's show. Jeff and Andy knew that there was only one way to ensure quality and keep their prices low. So they bought their own blade factory. So by taking less profit and selling directly over the internet, Harry's offers their blades at half of the prices that you're used to. With Harry's, you'll pay just $2 a blade compared to the $4 or more that you'll be paying at the drugstore. Now, before we finish this week's episode, we're going to talk very briefly about the fact that next week, me and Brad will be together for the Atlanta Pen Show. So I am already preparing myself for the entire bathroom full of Harry's products. Is that right, Bristar Bradnowdy?

Brad Dowdy: Well, I'm having a problem at the house now. I'm finding my razors and blades in various bathrooms at various times. So I'm going to have to go on a recon mission and recollect and make sure I have everything I need for next week's travel to the Atlanta Pen Show. You would not look as beautiful if you did not have Harry's products where you need them.

Myke Hurley: Without question. It's very important. Harry's is so confident that you will love their blades. So they want to give you their trial set for free. You just need to cover $3 for shipping. The free trial set that Harry's offers includes a weighted ergonomic razor handle, five precision engineered blades with a lubricating strip and trimmer blade, their rich lathering shave gel, and a travel blade cover. This is a value of $13 for you to try out for free. Now, look, stop messing around. If you haven't got started with Harry's, go today and claim your free trial offer. Just go to harrys.com slash penaddict right now to get started. All you need to do is cover that small shipping cost. Thank you so much to Harry's for their support of this show and RelayFM.

Brad Dowdy: So, Caroline, you're in college or close to wrapping up college or just right after, and you're having that kind of dream scenario just playing around in your head. If I could do anything in the world, this is what I want to do. And then the difference with you is you made that a thing. So when did you say, I actually might can pull this off. I might can be that lady in the pencil store today, not in retirement, you know, not, you know, down the line. You know, I don't need to go into the corporate world or wherever, you know, I'm supposed to do. I'm going to start a pencil shop. How did you get from those? How did you connect those dots?

Caroline Weaver: Yeah, I mean, it definitely didn't happen right away. I finished college and moved to New York quite simply just because I love it here and wouldn't want to live anyplace else. But I graduated with an art degree. So it probably goes without saying that it's not that easy to find a job when you have an art degree.

Myke Hurley: Especially in New York, right? I assume. Yeah. Yeah.

Caroline Weaver: Yeah. It's very hard. And I was pretty naive. Well, I think like most recent grads, I was pretty naive about what the real world was going to be like. So I moved here because I love New York and had a hard time finding a job. And I finally found a job and it wasn't really what I wanted to do. I really honestly didn't know what I wanted to do. And this job was really awful. I had a really bad first winter in New York. I was in this job that I hated. And I also somehow got Lyme disease living in Manhattan in like January without even like leaving. I didn't even leave the city. I don't know where that would have happened. But anyway, I got Lyme disease. I had like this really weird winter. And truly just like I just kind of woke up one day and thought like, okay, like this, all these like bad experiences I've had since I first moved to New York are some sort of sign that I need to make a big change in my life. And I just decided to do it. And I started crunching some numbers and thought like, okay, like I can I can make this work if I started online first. So I made like modest plans for that. And then I figured like, okay, maybe in like a year or so I can open a regular shop. And then maybe I can afford to hire some employees after a couple more years. And yeah, I was trying to be like very practical about it. And yeah, I did it. I spent the whole summer buying inventory and getting in touch with pencil factories and vendors and getting everything organized. And I photographed other things for the website. I kind of just did it all myself because I couldn't afford to hire people to do it for me. And I'm kind of stubborn and like to do those things on my own anyway.

Caroline Weaver: And then it just happened. I happened upon a space in the Lower East Side here in New York City that was tiny. It just kind of felt right. And it was like shockingly inexpensive for Manhattan real estate. And I think I wasn't planning on opening a physical store so quickly, but I think finding the space, it just felt so right. I couldn't have said no.

Inventory

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, so when you started, when you were starting to collect inventory and start the online store, did you still have your day job at that time? Or did you just like up and quit and just put yourself into it? Or did you just kind of work both things, getting it ready?

Caroline Weaver: I had quit already. I really like just went for it. It was very risky in retrospect. I don't know what I was thinking. I was like 23. So I guess that probably helps.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, that's amazing. I didn't realize that. I didn't realize that there was just like, okay, we are done with this and now we're all in. But that's, you know, kind of, and I don't want to ruin the story that we'll get to later. You mentioned this in the book that, you know, you just kind of made the jump and went for it. How many people told you you were insane or this is a terrible idea or, you know, you can't do this or any of those things that, you know, a 23-year-old starting their first business doesn't want to hear who has an idea and a dream and everyone's, you know, shooting you down. Did that happen a lot?

Caroline Weaver: Oh, yeah. Pretty much everyone told me that. Even my own mother. No, yeah. I don't know. But, but, and I don't know. Nobody really like straight up told me like, you're crazy. You shouldn't be doing this. But, yeah. My family and my friends, they were all supportive, but I could definitely sense hesitation.

Caroline Weaver: Yeah. They were all definitely very nervous for me. And only after it became a success did they admit this to me. So I'm grateful that they didn't try to crush my dreams at the time. Yeah. But it was pretty scary. I don't know. I think that might be one of my personality flaws is that when I have an idea in my mind, there's like no, there's no other way than just to just do it and do it really fast and just like do it 100%. And it's, it's been problematic. But in this case, I think it worked to my advantage.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. I think, I think in this case, it's, it's pretty good. It was, it was a good move. So your online store, you started that. Were you just running that essentially out of your apartment? You know, this inventory in the, in the closet. How did all that work?

Caroline Weaver: Yeah. Like really actually in the closet, stacks and stacks and stacks of boxes. My whole apartment was just full of pencils. It started to smell like pencils too, which was really nice. But yeah, it was just in, in my apartment, just backing up orders on my dining table.

Brad Dowdy: When did that start? Like what was the date that it started? Not the exact date, but just in general.

Caroline Weaver: That would have been fall of 2015.

Brad Dowdy: Okay. So yeah. Gosh, it's amazing how fast this has gone.

Caroline Weaver: Fall of 2014. No, I'm wrong. It would have been fall of 2014. Yeah.

Online Orders

Brad Dowdy: So that's when the online store got up, got running. So how did you, when you pressed go, how did you get those first orders? You know, did you have any kind of plan? Did you have, you know, just a wish and a prayer on, you know, hey, come buy a pencil from me or, or did you have any, any plan as far as, you know, getting, getting the site out there and things like that?

Caroline Weaver: Yeah. Well, I guess this is probably the worst part of this story is that I had no plan. I didn't know what on earth I was doing. Um, I also didn't want to put any money into advertising or anything like that. I didn't know how all this stuff about like, um, SEO and like how to like make your website visible. I, and the, and I was also afraid. I was afraid to tell anybody that I was doing this because I, again, thought that they would like think I was crazy. Cause it's one thing like telling people an idea and then it's another thing telling them about a thing that's like an actual real thing. I thought maybe that I, cause I'm giving them an actual thing to be critical of. I was just afraid. Um, so I didn't really tell anyone. I like told my mom and my friends and let it go for like a week. And I had a few orders from like random people who just found it, who I think were searching very specific things that are hard to find. And so that helps. And then, um, yeah. And then I think it wasn't an, it was when the, when the erasable podcast caught wind of it, that, um, it really like became a thing and I started getting a ton of orders.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. Got the, got the big push from, uh, from the podcast and funny, funny thing that internet, how word travels, right?

Caroline Weaver: Yeah.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. Oh, totally.

Caroline Weaver: Totally. From then on, I was just busy all the time.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. That's what I was going to say. Like, how soon did you know that? Okay. I think I have something here. I'm not quite sure yet, but I think I've got something.

Caroline Weaver: Um, I think it was pretty soon. It was like within like a month or two that I thought like, okay, like maybe this is a real thing now. Um, I still wasn't sure. I still wasn't like making enough money doing it to feel like totally secure signing a lease and opening a real store. But, um, I also didn't have, I mean, I didn't have much to lose because I was so young and I didn't have any like real responsibilities. So I thought it's okay if I like something goes south and I bankrupt myself and I'm left here with no pencil shot because at least I would have tried. So I think that was very much my attitude. Yeah. Um, that I'm just going to like try to be very careful, try to be as responsible as I can be and try to like put as much heart into it as I could. And if it didn't work out, then it didn't work out. So I just, yeah, from, from that on, I just kind of like decided like, okay, I'm in this now. I better just keep going.

Brad Dowdy: So one of the things you're known for to this day is how great of a, I don't know if curator is the right term, but you always, you, you definitely pay attention to the trends. You know, what's popular. You know, how to, you know, suss out quality over junk. And what were the very first things that you brought to the market? Like when the shop opened the first time, what were like a handful of the things that you were putting your reputation on the line at right from the gate?

Caroline Weaver: Yeah. Well, I, I mean, I, I already had favorite brands. There were a couple of brands that I knew weren't being sold in the U S, um, that I really wanted to bring in. Um, like V Arco was one of them there in Portugal and they make really, really beautiful, really just like perfectly nostalgic things. Um, and a lot of really innovative things. And I thought that was an important thing to include. Um, the other, I guess the other brand that I wanted to bring in that I thought was really important to have was, um, Natraj or Apsara. They're like both part of Hindu stand pencils and they're in India and they manufacture 8 million pencils a day. It's a humongous company. And if you're in like Southeast Asia, chances are like 99% of the pencils you're using come from this one humongous pencil conglomerate. And they weren't selling pencils in the U S either. And their pencils are very, very good. And their pencils are very cheap. And they have some really interesting ones. Like these one, one of our best sellers is a pencil that is just a normal HP pencil made out of Indian poplar and the paint finish it's marbled. And each pencil is individually marbled. So they're all different. And this pencil is 50 cents. It's really cheap. Um, anyway, yeah, this brand was really important to me because the one thing that I wanted to make sure I got across was that I wasn't trying to like, I wasn't trying to elevate the pencil and make it this like precious object. It was important to me that I have like nice pencils, like the nicest ones that money can buy. And also like great examples of unknown pencils that are really inexpensive, have interesting stories, are, um, very like highly functional. Um, and so that, I think that was an important brand to me because that kind of provided a bit of contrast. Um, and I think that also like helped me establish like my shop as like truly like a pencil lover's paradise. And that, I mean, from the perspective that they're like, there is some like something for everyone and there is sort of a little bit of everything.

Brad Dowdy: So what did, um, I guess in the beginning, did, did you have that thought in the back of your head when you're reaching out to these companies on in the big picture, how I want CW pencils to be seen as, you know, this type of store? That mean, did you, did you set off on this path that you were just talking about right from the beginning?

Caroline Weaver: Yeah. I, I realized from the beginning, especially because I'm in New York city and, um, there are a lot of really niche businesses here and there's a really big difference between, um, a specialty shop that sells something. And you can tell that all the people who work there are experts that like, there's a lot of care put into like every object that's sold and, um, that the people who work there are just like genuinely interested in sharing these things. And then there's, and then there's a type of specialty store where somebody sees that something is popular. They do a lot of research, find all the things and they open a shop just like strictly to capitalize on something that's popular. And I think there are more of those than there are like really like truly honest specialty shops left. Um, as well, at least like in the like physical form. So, um, and it was, yeah, I, I mean, I knew first of all that I was not going to open this store like in a trendy neighborhood in Brooklyn because then of course people are going to stereotype it and make it out to be like this, like quote unquote, like hipster thing. And that's not what I wanted. That's not what it is. Um, yeah, I've been like, yeah, I guess like fighting for my credibility since the start

Brad Dowdy: of this. Well, there's no doubt you, you have it in spades. That's for sure. So how, what, what are these, um, what are these companies like, uh, uh, Viarco and Nana Raj think when you, you first emailed them said, Hey, I'm opening up a big pencil store in the U S will you sell things to me?

Caroline Weaver: Um, they were really confused. Most of them. Well, some, there were some who were like, Oh, that's awesome. Like here, here's our line sheet, like order whatever you want. But, um, and then there were others who I had to like bother for a really long time. Like Hindustan was one of them, especially cause they're such a big company. They sell in like humongous volume. Um, and of course the numbers that I was looking for, they just kind of laughed at me, but they really didn't get it. But it took me like eight, well, it took me like a good eight months to like really convince them that my business was legitimate. Um, but yeah, there, there was a lot of confusion, but when you're, when like, I mean, these companies are in there to, um, are in there to, are in here to make money. So like they, yeah.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. One thing I wanted to drop in there and I don't know that there's a good point to bring it in and I don't know the right way to word the question, but was there any concern about the price point of a pencil? Because that's, it's a, it's a feature from a consumer's perspective, but from a business person's perspective, you, you know, like some of the pencils are 50 cents. Like, do you concern yourself with those things? Like in the beginning, I know now it's kind of maybe a different type of setup, but you know, like your margins may be the same as everyone else's margins, but they're on a $1 item. Did, was that any kind of concern in the beginning?

Caroline Weaver: Oh yeah, absolutely. Every, every which way I like tried to figure the numbers, um, that was always the main problem was that the things I was selling were just too inexpensive because I mean, we have things in our store that are 25 cents. I don't know, really know of anywhere else where you can even buy something for 25 cents anymore. But, um, that's why from the beginning I knew it was important to bring in some more expensive things like sharpeners that cost a couple hundred dollars or, um, yeah, accessories, notebooks, um, that sort of thing, or that I was just going to have to sell very high volume.

Brad Dowdy: Right.

Caroline Weaver: Um, and eventually that became the case, but, um, yeah, I, I don't know. I think, and I think that's the thing too, is that a lot of people come in because they're not intimidated because things are not expensive and, um, they can come in and pick out like 20 pencils. And depending on what you pick, like your bill still might be less than $10. And that's, I think that's really appealing to a lot of our customers. And I think like, yeah, we'd rarely have anyone come in and just buy like one pencil. Right.

Brad Dowdy: And I think that that's definitely the beauty of it. Right. I mean, you can find an amazing writing instrument for so cheap. You just gotta, you know, be, go to CW pencils or be at least, you know, a little bit aware of, of what you're purchasing and, um, things like that. And you'll all of a sudden have this whole different writing experience, which is what makes pencils and pens so wonderful. So let's, let's get to like the physical store itself. So you, how long did it take? I guess you said you found the shop a little bit, probably ahead of schedule and knew you just had to have it. So what was that timeframe? Was it in the, within the first year of your online store that you had the shop or a little bit after that?

Physical Shop

Caroline Weaver: Oh yeah, it was, it was much, it was very quick actually. Um, it was, I guess, March of 2015. Oh wow. That the physical shop opened. So it all happened very quickly. It didn't feel fast at the time. It felt okay at the time, but yeah. Um, yeah, it took about a month to get the shop set up. Um, yeah, I hired a contractor to help me with the things I definitely couldn't do myself, but every little thing that I could do myself, I did. Um, and yeah, I've, the problem, it was really crazy, but the problem was that I had ordered, I had found this guy on Etsy to make all the furniture for the shop for me because I had a very specific vision of what I thought the furniture would be like. And so I found this guy to make the furniture and, um, the last thing was the furniture to arrive. So I still have like the wall set up with all the jars of pencils, like labeled and ready to go. And I just sat in there for like weeks, like just with a folding table and a few chairs waiting for this furniture to arrive. And then it did. And then the next morning we opened.

Brad Dowdy: Oh, wow. How did, how did that initial opening go?

Caroline Weaver: Um, I kind of treated it the same as I treated the website. I didn't, I was kind of scared to tell anyone. Um, so I just didn't, I just like open the doors and that was that. Um, and people came, people who were just walking by, um, every day there would be like maybe one more person who was like, oh, my friend told me about this and that's why I'm here. Um, and I had, I had planned that like maybe in a, I had given myself like three months. I felt like, okay, three months, nothing happens. Then maybe I'll start like thinking about a budget for marketing. Um, but I got really lucky because within a couple of weeks, um, Gothamist, which is like a website about things in New York, did an article about the shop. And then, um, just about, I guess like a month after that, the New York Times showed up and the rest is history. It was just a snowball effect from there.

Brad Dowdy: That's amazing. That's amazing. So how long was it from when you opened till you said, I need some help in here? Let's get, let's get these pencil ladies hired who are awesome. I just want to say Caitlin and Alex, who I talk to frequently and who else, who else do you have working there for you now? I want to get a model shout out.

Caroline Weaver: Meredith too.

Brad Dowdy: Meredith.

Caroline Weaver: Yeah. Meredith does like all of, well, all of our like artwork recently. Yes, she does like the stickers, she did the pins for us, anything that requires anything like creative. That's Meredith's thing. She's an illustrator and she's very talented. Um, but yeah, I guess, well, actually Caitlin's two year shop anniversary is coming up in like five days. We just looked up the other day, we looked up the, um, the email that she sent me. Um, and this was in April. So this would have been like a little less than three months or a little less than one month after the shop opened. And this Gothamist article had just been posted and, um, she was in the shop shopping coincidentally on the last day of her old job. Um, she had just quit her job. She was in the shop shopping because somebody told her about it. And I was, she overheard me telling somebody that I was starting to get really busy and I was going to need to think about hiring someone. And then she emailed me the next day and admitted to eavesdropping and was just like really funny about it.

Brad Dowdy: And, um, that pretty much sounds like her.

Caroline Weaver: Yeah. And then she came in the next day and we talked and she started a few days later. Um, and I, yeah, I just hired her on the spot. I really needed the help. This girl seems normal. She seems smart. We're good to go.

Brad Dowdy: On her second anniversary. Does she get a free foil stamp pencil? Does she get to like, go say, you know, make her own fancy pencil?

Caroline Weaver: Oh, I should like do one. I should do like a silly shop anniversary pencil for her. Yeah.

Brad Dowdy: So you have some neat things in the shop like that, right? I mean, people can foil stamp their own pencils, right?

Caroline Weaver: Yeah. Yeah. We have a Kingsley machine from the 1960s that we used to hot foil stamp pencils. That's actually Alex's job now. She's officially in charge of custom pencils. So she does all of that. Um, she coordinates all of that with customers and companies who place big orders and, um, she's the expert. Um, but it's cool. It's, it has, the machine has to be like 300 degrees and we handset all the type and the machine itself is a really amazing object. We used to keep it in the shop just because it looks really cool and people loved seeing that whole process happen. But it started to become a problem because we were just like stamping pencils all day long because people would come in and be like, Ooh, what's that? Like, can you do one with like this name and this name and this name? And then we were just going and going and going. And so we had to move it down the street to the office. Yeah.

Brad Dowdy: So paint a picture real quick for those of us like myself who have not been there. Uh, unlike Myke who has had the, the privilege of being at your store. It's, uh, what's, what are the dimensions like? Cause I know it's a pretty small and I imagine a foil stamping machine in there not only is large, but warm.

Caroline Weaver: Yes, definitely a safety hazard. But the, the shop is 200 square feet. It's very small. It's, um, slightly above street level. So you have to walk up three steps to get into it. Um, and we have a huge, the whole front of the store is just one big window that looks out onto a park that has a big soccer field. Um, we're on a very quiet street, like quiet enough that in the summertime there are actually like kids playing in the street. It's kind of amazing. Um, and yeah, in the shop we have a desk in the back and, um, a little desk in the front where we keep all the pencils that we sell in the drawer so you can sit down and test them all and we can make recommendations. Um, and there's a case that's like, I bought one of those, like a lot of those bulletin boards that you have in schools that has like a glass cover and you can lock it. And I filled it with cork and I, I pin, um, all the vintage pencils in there. Um, and then we have a wall, which is like the thing that I think everyone's seen a picture of where it's just like shelves with tiny jars of pencils, all labeled, um, all alphabetical by brand, um, with like stacks of boxes on the top.

Brad Dowdy: Do you still get, I imagine on a daily, if not weekly basis, do you get people stumbling in that didn't, didn't know anything about pencils or say, you know, oh my God, there's a pencil shop. What is going on here?

Caroline Weaver: Yeah. We, we still get that maybe like once a day.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah.

Caroline Weaver: Every other day, people who are really surprised. Um, yeah, we get a lot of people who come in and they're like, they're, they'll be like, oh, like I was just talking about this and like, I really can't believe that this is real. Um, yeah, that's, it's where the shop is, is a really kind of odd location. It's kind of between a lot of different neighborhoods, but it's not really in its own neighborhood. It's like on the cusp of Chinatown and the lower East side and Nolita and you go like a few blocks North and you're in the East village. It's, it's a really confusing location. And I think, and that, that's what I love about it is that like, I liked, I liked the idea that it's a place that you kind of just have to discover. Nobody, unless you're, nobody like really walks. Well, people do all the time. That's how they find us. But like nobody walks down my street, like expecting to find something like that. And I, I love that like element of surprise when people are like, why is this here? Like, that's so strange that this thing is on this street.

Pencil of the Month

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. So I want to, I want to change the, change the course a little bit and talk about a couple of things you've done just as a whole, as the shop. Like when you started, I thought it was a very cool thing. You did a pencil of the month club and that went really, really well. And I know you enjoyed putting that together and then that stopped. And I'm sure you got some interesting emails about that. And recently, I guess this year you started up a new type of subscription. You're doing a quarterly subscription, pencil subscription, where you're kind of putting together an entire set. Sometimes I guess around a theme. So tell us how like the pencil of the month worked, why it went away. And then kind of, I think what it's morphed into now.

Caroline Weaver: Yeah. Pencil of the month was, I think something that was, I don't know, it was something that I'd wanted to do from the beginning. It was something that I thought was really important to do. And it was a subscription where every single month at the beginning of the month, we'd send you like a little box and inside the box, there would be an insert with information about the pencil that was in the box. And then there would be a pencil that was always a pencil that we did not already sell. That was important that it was something that would be like totally new for most of the people who shop with us. And it was fun. There was a lot of packaging involved because we'd like wrap the pencils in tissue paper and we'd like pick out a different washi tape each month and a different colored box and different twine. And it was a, it was very tedious. And then I made the mistake of talking about it in a couple of magazines. And then like out of nowhere, we were like, we looked at our numbers and we had like over 800 subscribers.

Brad Dowdy: Oh my gosh.

Caroline Weaver: Which is a lot for a tiny shop. At the time, like Caitlin was, I don't even know if Caitlin was, well, yeah, Caitlin would have just become full time. And we had like two people who worked a couple of days a week and it was, it was, it just became to be too much. Like we couldn't do that. I needed to hire somebody to do that like full time to keep up with it. And so we made the really hard decision to kind of just like stop it and just phase everybody out. And we got a lot of emails about it. A lot of emails. People were very mad at me for this, but I told them all like, we will do this someday in the future. I cannot tell you when, but it will happen again in a different format, but we just like cannot do this anymore without going crazy. There was one day like December, the first year when the, when we first started having like crazy numbers and the pencils didn't show up on the day that we needed to do it. On a Monday when the shop was closed, the pencils weren't here and like nothing was happening right. And we were in the shop just like surrounded by boxes and like it was, it was a nightmare. It was horrible. We were there until like 2am fulfilling pencils a month subscriptions. And at one point, one of the girls was like, wait, is that Jonah Hill? And we all looked up and Jonah Hill was standing at the bottom of our stoop, just like watching us in the shop, just like surrounded by bubble mailers. At like probably like midnight. It was, it was bad, but.

Myke Hurley: One day that is going to find its way into a movie, right? Like just this scene of like three or four ladies putting individual pencils into envelopes, right? Like that's going to appear one day.

Caroline Weaver: I don't know where that came from. Yeah, totally. But yeah, that was kind of like a really, a really terrible moment. That was around the time when we were like, we cannot do this anymore.

Myke Hurley: Was part of the problem that is because it was a single pencil?

Caroline Weaver: Um, I don't know. People liked that it was a single pencil, um, that it was just like very simple, but I don't know for us, because it was a single pencil. We felt like we had to overcompensate by like making, by like making it feel like really extra special. Sure. Um, and it also was hard for me to find pencils every month. It was a lot of work to like come up with something interesting and relevant and exciting, like stuff that people would actually want. We had to be careful that we weren't like repeating brands all the time, that we weren't repeating like types. Um, so it required a lot of organization. Um, and so just recently in March, we shipped our first box. We started doing a quarterly subscription called the pencil box and, um, each box is themed like most subscription boxes are. And, um, we include like a few pencils, a couple of accessories, like maybe like, like wild card kind of novelty thing. And the first box was called the classics box, um, which you guys talked about. So a lot of you probably already know what it's about. The next box is so much fun. I just, just finished buying everything today, actually. And I'm very excited about it. They're just going to keep getting better. I can promise.

Brad Dowdy: Oh, I can't wait.

Caroline Weaver: Yeah. But it's been a lot of fun and it's a lot easier and it gives us more time to like really think about the things we're putting into it. And we've cut back on the packaging a lot this time, like with the, it's not as tedious of a process. Um, but even so, like we decided this time we were actually going to like make a, like, I guess like make a limit and we sold out like in a week with the first round and we're slowly like introducing more as we feel more comfortable with it. But we're definitely doing it so that we have a little bit more control this time around.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. So one thing you mentioned this a couple of times and the, you know, I don't want to say tedious, but you, you use the word and I know you like really care about the aesthetic of the package and just like the joy someone on the other end is going to receive when they get this box in the mail and the yellow envelope and the, the black and white twine. So tell us, tell me something about that, how that came about and like how important is that to you specifically as part of just the entire experience?

Caroline Weaver: I think that's really, really crucial. That's like one of the most important things to me is, um, the, is the packaging because I, I think that we sell really special things and I want people to feel like they are receiving something that is cared about and something that is really special, even if it is a 25 cent pencil and, um, wrapping it in an envelope and tying it up between like those like very small extra steps that really don't cost us a ton of extra money or time. Um, I think just make a really big difference. We handwrite the notes that go into our online orders and we, we get so many emails every week from people who are like, wow, I can tell that an actual human packed my order and, um, people get really excited about it. Are people in the shop when they don't realize that we go through all this extra effort? Just think it's like the coolest thing, but, um, super cool. I set the bar pretty high for us though, which may have been a bad idea because now there are a lot of expectations. You definitely did that.

Brad Dowdy: You definitely did. And I will hold you to that. You set the bar very high, but that's why we love you and the CW pencils enterprises so much because we know like, that's why your subscription sells out in like a minute because we know what's going into it and it's not the products. It's the people behind it. And our faith is in you and your staff. And that's part of it, you know, like we get it, you know, and I think a lot of your customers feel the same way. So now we have a lot more to get to. We have a book to talk about. I want to know about some of your personal likes and dislikes and pencils, but now I'm going to ask you the hardest question, um, of this, uh, this hard hitting interview. Um, what's next for the shop? What's the future hold? Is there a second shop? Is there more, you know, online presence, bigger and better? What's, what's the future holding right now for CW pencils?

Caroline Weaver: That is quite the question. Um, I, I, I'm hoping that in, at least in the next couple of years, I want to start doing more of our own products. We've done a couple of collaborations. Now we've started designing products and having other people manufacture them, which is really, really exciting. Um, that's for me personally, in my role in this business, that's the thing that I'm most interested in. Um, Caitlin's doing a lot of work to, um, expand and improve our online presence. Um, yeah, we're always, we've been making a lot of like small web improvements lately. Um, I don't think we're going to open another store anytime soon. Um, I'm really scared of that, to be honest. Um, running one store is a lot of work, especially with like the level of integrity that I expect. And, um, I just think it would be really, really hard to replicate. I get, I get offers to franchise this place all the time and I like just can't, I just can't, I'm not ready for that. Maybe someday I'll open another shop. I'd have to be careful about where I put it. Um, because I think this type of shop, I mean, we wouldn't be, we wouldn't be selling high enough volume to be able to sustain it. And a lot in most places, I'd have to be very strategic about where I put it, but, um, maybe one day, but not now. Definitely not now. Um, I'm really happy with my one tiny shop and maybe by only having one of them that just makes it extra special. Um, but yeah, we're looking forward to lots of new products. We have a lot of ideas, so many ideas, but, um, I don't know. It's all of this happened so fast within two years, everything that I could have ever dreamed about for like 10 years of this business already happened, just kind of like organically. So I feel like I'm only just now catching my breath. Um, I only just now feel like I can take a weekend off and not feel guilty about it. So I think we're just going to like chill out for like the next six months and then maybe start like rolling out some new products. That's my, that's what I hope for.

Brad Dowdy: I like it. I like it. I think that's perfect. And yeah, it has gone by so fast. Yeah. I'm sure you're just still like running every day and, you know, hopefully that doesn't stop anytime soon. And I don't see any reason why it would. And, uh, adding anything else into the mix would just add to the craziness. You know, I think y'all are doing just awesome. All right. So Myke, let's talk about one of our good friends at Pen Chalet. Then I have a lot more I want to get into about, um, some of these products that they're making and a little book that Caroline wrote.

Pen Chalet

Myke Hurley: So we're speaking way too much about pencils today for my liking. So I'm here to balance the table a little bit. Talk about Pen Chalet. They sell all of your favorite brands. They have Lamy, Pilot, Namiki, Sailor, Kaweco, and so many more. They have fast and reliable customer service. They do free shipping on orders of over $50 in the U.S. And they sell internationally with very reasonable shipping rates. In fact, I had a package show up today from Pen Chalet, which I had shipped over, Brad, and it includes my, uh, Lamy Safari Petrol Limited Edition, which I'm using today to run my show up for the show. So I was very happy about that. Pen Chalet has low prices on high quality pens and a 100% satisfaction guarantee. You want to go to PenChalet.com, P-E-N-C-H-A-L-E-T.com and click the podcast link at the top of the website. When you enter the password Pen Addict there, you'll get the code that you need to save 10% on anything at Pen Chalet, along with some special offers this week. And I say offers. Ron has gone all out this week. So. Yes, he has. One thing is that he's going to extend the 40% off on the Monteverde 36 pen zipper case because we sold out those super quick. So we have some more of those. So if you're looking for some pen zipper cases, maybe do you want to see if you're traveling to any pen shows, hint, hint, and you want to get one in real quick. That's a great thing to get. Plus, we have 50% off the Conklin Mark Twain fountain pen in either the black or limited edition demonstrator. And there is an extra offer this week, which I'm not allowed to talk about at all. I can't say what the pen is or what the price is, but there is one.

Brad Dowdy: Okay, so this is the one I wanted to talk about. And you don't tell me this before the ad read because that's the rules of this ad read, right? You don't tell Brad what's in it until Brad goes in it. But then you don't tell me the part where Brad can't say about the one pen that Brad really loves in this ad. So I guess now people have to go see what it is.

Myke Hurley: Yeah, they can't say. I am looking at it right now, and it is an insane deal. Like, yeah, it's an insane deal.

Brad Dowdy: I do not own this pen. I have reviewed this pen. So there's a hint for you. But you'll know real quick once you head over to Pen Chalet and use the code PENADDICT. And I know everyone was looking for that Monteverdi pen case because they sold out of them so fast last time we advertised it. So it is back and available again.

Myke Hurley: Yep. So go check it out. Like, you want to see. You want to go take a look. You just want to go take a look. You got to. So penchalet.com, P-E-N-C-H-A-L-E-T.com. And click the podcast link. Put in the password Pen Addict, and you'll get those offers. Pen Chalet are also running a National Stationery Week slash World Stationery Day giveaway. I'm going to put a link in the show notes to all of the info about their discounts and giveaways there. So thank you so much to Pen Chalet for their continued support of this show and RelayFM.

Brad Dowdy: So Caroline, Myke just mentioned it, and I'm going to jump this in ahead of the book. Myke just got a Lamy Safari, and I know you just bought a Lamy Safari as well. So tell us why you went and cheated on your pencil friends.

Caroline Weaver: I don't think it's cheating.

Brad Dowdy: I agree. I agree.

Caroline Weaver: I have other patents. I really like Caran d'Ache 849 ballpoint pens. I have a lot of those. Yes. And I use a lot of Muji pens. Those are pretty great. But I've never owned a fountain pen before. And I have been thinking about buying one for a really long time. And Greg, who's our sales rep for Caran d'Ache, is always showing us the new ones when he's got them in his bag when he comes to visit us. And they're so beautiful. And I always think, okay, that's the one that I want. But then I realized a $600 pen is probably not an ideal starter fountain pen, even at wholesale price. So I decided to try a pen that is actually a suitable starter pen. And I remembered something on Twitter about you, Brad, talking about the Lambie Safari versus the, what's the other one?

Brad Dowdy: The AL Star. It's an aluminum barrel.

Caroline Weaver: And so I went on jetpens.com and looked them up. And there was one that was like pencil yellow with a fine nib, which is something that I knew I wanted. That was a requirement. And so I bought it. And I'll admit that I keep forgetting that I have it. So I haven't really used it that much. I have a little desk in my living room that I use strictly for writing letters. And it's there. Sometimes I use it when I'm writing on paper or some sort of like greeting card that doesn't take pencil very well. But I'm really enjoying it. And I think like, I think this will not be the last fountain pen.

Brad Dowdy: And that's awesome. That's awesome. That was the Safari was kind of my first fountain pen. And I did almost exactly like you did. I bought it. And then I used it for a second. Then I kind of really didn't use it. But it was a round. And then like over the next few months, I would pick it up more and more than all of a sudden it became something clicked and it just became a thing. And then now, you know, I'm buying from the Cron Dash Magic Briefcase too frequently, if you will. So, yeah, that's cool. I think you did good on the Safari. And you can't beat that yellow color. That's one of the all time. That's one of their most historic colors that they run through that line. So, it's been around for decades and decades. So, really, really cool. All right. So, if all of our listeners haven't understood how busy Caroline has been for these past two or three years, she decided to one up all of us and write a book. Because she didn't apparently didn't have anything else going on. So, she said, I'm going to write a book. And it's called The Pencil Perfect. And I got my copy in. And let me read the inscription because I did ask Caroline to inscribe. It says, for Brad, we all know the pencil is superior to the pen. And I can't argue with that. So, thank you for doing that. And I did get an advanced look at the book. And I want to say, I was, number one, I was super pumped for this book. Number two, when I started reading it, I don't know what it is about. It's, I guess it's a combination of your style and the information suiting me. It was like I was reading the most intense suspense thriller that I didn't want to put down. Like when you're telling the stories through the book, I wanted to know the next chapter. I was like, I have to go to bed. I have to stop reading. So, tell us how this book came about and why I love it so much.

Caroline Weaver: I don't know that I can tell you why you love it so much. But I'm very happy to hear that.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, it's crazy. It's kind of tripping me out. I was like, I have to stop because I have to sleep at some point. And I'm sad.

Caroline Weaver: Wow, I didn't know it was that riveting. Yeah. That's so good to hear. Yeah, so this book kind of came out of nowhere. And it was not really something that I decided to do. It's something that I had talked about doing like someday. I didn't think I was qualified enough necessarily to do it now. But I was the publisher, Gestalt and their German art book publisher, they contacted me about doing it. And this would have been around this time last year.

Caroline Weaver: Out of the blue, they got in touch. And I had been in one of their books before. They had this other book. That's a beautiful, like very giant coffee table book called The Shopkeepers. And it's about shops all over the world, mostly that are like very like designy shops. And it's like profiles on the people who run them. And so I was in that book. And I think they had heard me on like BBC radio or something. And they got in touch. And they were like, hey, we keep hearing about this. Like, would you be interested in doing a book with us? And we did a couple of like conference calls and got to talking about it and eventually came up with an outline that everybody agreed on. And it was an interesting project because it was their first text-based book. Most of their books are image-based. And so, of course, there was always going to be some sort of visual element. So they picked an illustrator to illustrate the whole thing and graphite, of course. But it was mainly going to be a text-based book. And so, yeah, it was – again, it just all kind of happened so quickly. I didn't have much time to even like think about what I was doing or what the – like how writing a book in three months would affect my day-to-day life. So, yeah, I was really in for a surprise. That's for sure. But it was – they made it very easy for me. I had a really solid outline and I did it like piece by piece every week. I had different sections I worked on. And I had to stay up very late most nights working on this. And I did take an extra day off from the shop to work at home. Every Wednesday I worked from home. And I'm grateful that at that period of time around like last summer, last fall, I had a lot of extra help. So I had a lot of support. Caitlin held the fort down over here while I was like losing my mind and very tired all the time. So I really appreciated that. But now it's a thing. It exists. It's in the world.

Brad Dowdy: I mean, holy crap, I guess. It's that awesome. And that three months is insane with everything else you have going on. And I'm just really impressed with the information you shared. Like I've learned so much. I think that's why I didn't want to put it down because I don't know this stuff, right? But I'm involved in it and getting all those background tidbits and a lot of the historical aspects of the pen and pencil. Wow. That was a Freudian slip, I guess.

Brad Dowdy: That it just it's really hard for me to put down. It's just so well done and wonderful. And everyone should should pick it up. So I think the main question everyone wants to know, did you write the draft in pencil?

Caroline Weaver: I did write the draft in pencil. What? A lot of pencils, actually. I think it was 30, 39 in the end. And the end pages in the book, actually, it's the end pages in illustration of a bunch of like tiny pencil stubs lined up. And those are those are the stubs of all the pencils that I used to write.

Brad Dowdy: No way. OK. That is too cool.

Caroline Weaver: So it was all written in pencil. It's interesting history, though, isn't it? It's a lot of stuff that I feel like a lot of people don't know. And that's so much of my job is just telling stories all day. And so it was cool to be able to like organize those stories and like, well, really very heavily fact check them all. First of all, that was a little bit challenging. Yeah. Yeah. It's just so fun to share those things because most people have no idea.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. It's true about it correlates a lot with the pen industry in that time frame of the late 19th century, early 20th century when inroads in America are starting to happen. And there is a lot of infighting and theft and, you know, stealing of, you know, designs and lawsuits and things like that. It's it all happened at the same time, like in the pen world that a lot of these these goings on in the in the pencil world were happening, too. So it it's really, really cool. So I wholeheartedly recommend it. I haven't finished it yet. I think I'm about halfway through, but it's enthralling. I love it. And I'm really glad to see something like this on the market from someone who cares so much about the the topic that they're discussing. And I I hope it's doing well for you. And I don't know if you have any insight or can share anything, but I hope it's I hope it's going well so far as far as sales go.

Caroline Weaver: Yeah, it's it's great. It's very surprising, actually. The day we had a party a couple of weeks ago when we first got it. And that the day of I realized because we had just made it available online that we were going to sell out. And I had to have the publisher like courier 100 more books over to the shop in the middle of the day. It was a big disaster. But they got here in time. Nobody knew what was happening. It was fine. But it's doing very well. For some reason, it's not that it's not available on Amazon yet. Their preorder date is set for to ship in May. I'm not quite sure why. But yeah, but for now, I think in the US, we're the only people who have it. And it's been doing really, really well. I'm kind of surprised. There's been a lot of interest. Great.

Brad Dowdy: Great.

Myke Hurley: I just preordered it on Amazon. Nice. Perfect. I mean, how can I not after that rave review from Brad, right?

Brad Dowdy: I'm serious. Like, I don't want to, like, I don't make stuff up. Like, I'm not pretending when I say this. It was like, I was literally sad the other night when I had to stop reading because at some point I had to go to bed. And I was like, but there's more. I was like, this is a good story. So I thoroughly enjoy it. So there's my, you can use that on your next book. You can use it as a quote. Brad Dowdy on The Pencil Perfect. Oh, yeah. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Caroline Weaver: You can endorse my next book. Yeah. No, the second edition will have, like, have you on the cover.

Brad Dowdy: With, like, a pen stabbing through my eyeball or something like that. You know, or pencil.

Caroline Weaver: Yeah. We'll do that.

Brad Dowdy: All right. So when you wrote this book, and this is going to kind of lead into, like, some of your personal tastes and likes and dislikes. I didn't realize, like, I've been eyeballing the picture in the back of the book. And I had no idea the story attached to it.

Favorite Pencil

Brad Dowdy: So what was your favorite pencil to use in writing the book? And what's your personal favorite pencil to use on a daily, regular basis? I don't know if those are the same thing. Because there is a difference, which we're going to talk about, between necessarily a favorite and what's perfect for a situation.

Caroline Weaver: Yeah, definitely. I used a lot of different pencils when I wrote the book. I tried to, well, I mean, because it depends on how fast I go through them. I tried to plan them according to what I was writing about. So if I was writing about Faber-Castell, I tried to write with, like, a Faber-Castell pencil. Or, yeah, like, if I was writing with, when I wrote about Black Wings, I used a Black Wing. When I wrote about Japanese pencils, I used a Japanese novelty pencil. Which made the process a lot more fun. Also, side note, writing a book and pencil is great because you have to sharpen them all the time. It's, like, really good if you really need a distraction. You can just, like, sharpen all your pencils. It's really therapeutic. But, yeah, for writing the book, like, that, I was writing on paper that was kind of toothy. So anything super soft was a little bit problematic because I had to sharpen all the time. Which is, in some cases, if I was at a certain mood, that's kind of a good thing. Because I needed those, like, forced breaks. But, yeah, I'm not a fan of harder pencils. But I did end up using pencils that had good point retention because I needed it. And a lot of, like, the Japanese ones in, like, an HB or an F, I ended up using a lot of Japanese pencils if I was using them just, like, purely for function.

Caroline Weaver: Yeah, like, the Haiuni in HB is a good one because it looks like a soft pencil and feels like a soft pencil but has great point retention. I used a couple of Fs, even, and I don't use Fs ever. But, yeah, the pencils that I used for the book were very different from the pencils that I choose in my personal life. And I don't even know that I have, like, a favorite. I have a couple that I gravitate towards most often if I'm not – I mean, a lot of times I'm writing with something that's new just because I want to get to know it. Or with something that I haven't used for a while because I want to re-familiarize myself with it because I do need to know everything I can about these things. But I use an Epsara Absolute a lot. That's one of my all-time favorites. It's made in India, and it's very strong. You can drop it a million times and it won't break. But it's also very dark and very smooth, very inexpensive. I love that one. I love the camel pencils or, like, craft – we saw one from Craft Design Technology that's, like, a very pale mint green. And I know you've talked about those before, haven't you?

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, I've talked about Craft Design as a brand, but I didn't review that camel. I reviewed just one of the regular camels with the right white eraser. Yeah.

Caroline Weaver: Yeah, they're amazing. They're a really great, like, simple pencil, great eraser. They're designed really well. If you're ever at the MoMA or in, like, a MoMA design store, the MoMA pencils are made by camel. They're round. They're painted great colors. They're matte, and they have a black eraser. They're really cool. Oh, cool. They sell them in a pack of sticks for, like, $7 or $8.

Caroline Weaver: Yeah, I love the Craft Design Technology pencil or, likewise, the Toya pencils. Again, they're all the same. And I guess, like, in the past, like, four or five months, like, the It pencil of our shop, like, amongst the pencil ladies, has been the Tombow Mono 100 in an F grade. And it's a great pencil because Japanese pencils run a little bit soft. And so, even in an F, it, like, writes, like, an HB pencil or even a B pencil and looks like it. But the point retention is just unreal. You never have to sharpen. It's not very smudgy. That pencil itself is beautiful. The Tombow Mono 100 has 10 billion particles per cubic millimeter in its graphite core. So, they refine that graphite until it's basically, like, nothing. And so, it's really, really smooth. And the design is just, like, kind of flashy and amazing. But, yeah, that's definitely a pencil lady favorite across the board.

Brad Dowdy: And what about a paper product to pair with some of these favorites?

Caroline Weaver: Ooh. I'm ashamed to admit that I don't really have, like, a notebook that I use every day. I use whatever's around or whatever I'm using at work.

Caroline Weaver: I use a planner a lot. And I have a type, I have a planner that's, like, half blank pages. So, that kind of doubles as, like, my regular life, like, everyday notebook. That's made by Smythson in the UK. It has blue pages. They're very, very, it's very lightweight. It works well with any writing instrument. But I really like Midori notebooks. I have one that I use at home as my journal that I made at an event that they did here in New York. Where you get to, like, those spiral bound ones. And you get to, like, make your own notebook. It was so fun. I really like their paper because it's really smooth. And it does well with at least the pens that I use. I'm not a very advanced pen user. But it's not, I really prefer smooth paper. But so much of it is, like, a little bit too smooth for most pencils. So, I think the Midori paper is about as smooth as you can get.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, we have a listener question about that, which is a very good question. I want to, we'll dig into that in a little bit. How about in the shop? Is there, so you have these favorites. The pencil ladies have their favorites. But is there anything in the shop that people just gravitate to constantly and can't leave without? Definitely.

Caroline Weaver: Well, there are different ones for different purposes.

Caroline Weaver: Well, black wings. We do sell a lot of black wings. But we call that, like, the gateway pencil. That's the one that gets people into fancy pencils. And then I think, like, after that, they kind of move on to things that are more specific to their taste once they start to refine their taste. And recently, one that's been, like, a real showstopper in the shop that's been selling really well is a Mitsubishi pencil. That's one of those penmanship pencils that's meant for practicing calligraphy. And they have a very thick core and they're always very soft. But it's, like, a soft pencil that's meant for writing, not drawing, which is a bit unusual. And we have this one that is a 10B. And if you're familiar with the pencil grading scale, a 10B is basically impossible. At that point, you're just writing with straight graphite. And a pencil is made out of graphite and klein. The grade depends on the ratio. And there are almost no 10Bs in the world. Mitsubishi is, like, the only company who makes, like, a true 10B. And this pencil is amazing. It's so buttery. And it's so strong, too. It doesn't, like, crumble like you would expect it to. And they're expensive. They're painted gold. They cost $7.50 each. And they come in their own, like, flashy little box. The packaging looks like it should be, like, a makeup pencil, not a pencil pencil. It's pretty amusing. But, yeah, if I leave that out on the test station, people pick it up and always react to it immediately. Yeah, that's a great one. The rainbow pencils, those ones that have, like, multiple colors mixed in them are always really surprising to people, especially, like, people just walking by. And, yeah, the camel pencils. Any form of camel pencil is always really exciting to our customers in-store and online.

Brad Dowdy: That's awesome. Yeah, that's just a really, really good look, striking look, and awesome quality. Speaking of awesome quality, Myke, why don't you tell us about our good friends at Mack Weldon?

Myke Hurley: Mack Weldon make the most comfortable underwear, socks, shirts, undershirts, hoodies, and sweatpants that you're ever going to wear. Frankly, they are better than what you're wearing right now. Of course, unless you're wearing Mack Weldon already. Mack Weldon are so confident of this, they have a no-questions-asked return policy. So, they're so sure that you'll be super comfortable in whatever you buy that if you don't like your first pair, you keep them and they'll refund you, no questions asked. By pairing premium fabrics, meticulous attention to detail, and a simple shopping experience, Mack Weldon delivers a new level of daily comfort straight to your door. They make undershirts that stay tucked, socks that stay up, and waistbands that don't roll. Everything they make is with premium cotton blended with natural fibers, and their website is built to get you in and out as quickly as possible. They don't want to waste your time. As I've been doing a bunch of traveling over the past couple of weeks and over the next couple of weeks, I'm making myself feel very comfortable by wearing my Mack Weldon gear, because it keeps me good, and it keeps me feeling nice, and it makes me look good too. Like, I don't look like I'm just kind of slumming it in the airport, right? Like, I look good in this stuff, right? The sweatpants that they make are like my favorite things on the planet. I could talk about them forever. Not only do Mack Weldon's underwear, socks, and shirts look good, they perform well. Listeners of this show can get 20% off at MackWeldon.com. That's M-A-C-K-W-E-L-D-O-N.com with the code PENADDICT, all one word. Thank you so much to Mack Weldon for their support of this show. It's MackWeldon.com, code PENADDICT for 20% off. Thanks for supporting Relay FM, Mack Weldon.

Brad Dowdy: So you up for some listener questions, Caroline? We got a few in here.

Caroline Weaver: Yeah, I'm ready. I purposely didn't look at that part of the show notes because I wanted to be surprised.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, I sometimes just leave these out just because, yeah, I think it's better just, you know, kind of going off the cuff a little bit. But this one is one I wanted to know the answer to, and one you just mentioned a moment ago, and this is from Scott, and I'm going to read this. It says, I'm rediscovering woodcase pencils, and I find fountain pen-friendly paper to be rather pencil unfriendly, as if it is too coated or smooth and doesn't allow for the pencil to leave enough graphite behind. What should I be looking for in a paper suited for pencils? CW Pencils carries the Mormon memo signed notebooks. What pencil hardness works best with that paper? So I think that's a great question because a lot of listeners that aren't necessarily into woodcase pencils or just getting into them, like, you know, I am over the past year, and a lot of listeners like Scott, you know, we might have rhodia pads sitting on our desk or some other coated, very smooth paper that's going to show off fountain pen ink properties, and then you break out a pencil, and it doesn't really work that well. So what's your thoughts on that?

Caroline Weaver: That is a great question. Yeah, rhodia paper is a little bit too smooth. If depending on the pencil, it's just going to smear all over your paper, and especially if you dig an eraser to it, that's when it gets really messy.

Caroline Weaver: Yeah, pencil definitely needs something, like, something to hold on to a little bit. The Nemesee notebooks are amazing. Those, we sell tons of those. That's probably our best-selling range of notebooks because they are, they're great for any writing instrument, pretty much, and they just look really cool. They're basically just, like, a fancy adult version of, like, a school notebook. Yeah, they're one of my all-time favorites. Yeah, they're so good. That's what we use, like, for our own. We each have our own, like, small one that we use for, like, our to-do lists and all of our, like, daily work. But those, I don't have a problem with any pencil hardness on those. I wouldn't use anything, like, just for general note-taking, anything above, like, maybe, like, a 2B on those.

Caroline Weaver: Harder pencils work well on it. One that I used a couple months ago, Alex had us do, like, a one-pencil challenge where we were only allowed to use one type of pencil for an entire week, and I chose one that I was really not familiar with, which was the Viarco Desenho in an H, which is much harder than I normally prefer. And I was so surprised by how great it was on that paper. It was amazing. It felt smooth. It, like, made a little bit of a sound. I almost like my pencils to sound a little bit scratchy. I feel like it just makes me more aware of, like, the physicality of the thing I'm using. But it didn't smudge at all, which was the best part. I realized after using that pencil that it's great for left-handed people, especially because it really doesn't smudge, especially on Nemesine paper.

Caroline Weaver: But, yeah, that's a tricky one because they do like different paper. And even pencils don't like really toothy paper. So then it just, like, picks up too much graphite, and it gets just, like, messy and gross. I don't know if anyone has tried the craft design technology, and Life Notebooks did a collaboration, and they have this amazing notepad that's, like, kind of medium-sized, and it's perforated, it's bound at the top, and it's this, like, really creamy paper that has a very faint grid on it. And the grid is printed on both sides. And that paper is great for anything, for fountain pen, for pencil. That's another one of our bestsellers, like, all-time favorites.

Brad Dowdy: Okay, I need that notebook in my life because I'm a huge life fan. And, yeah, I will check that out, plus that pencil. Yeah, it's cool. Tell me the name of that Viarco again. Which model was it?

Caroline Weaver: It's the Viarco Desenho in an H.

Brad Dowdy: Okay, yeah, added to the list.

Brad Dowdy: So the one I had recently added to the list and made sure I ordered when I ordered my book, because they sell out from time to time and I've missed them, is your collaboration, your CW Pencils collaboration with Caran d'Ache. So I think that was probably my most asked question. Like, talk about that pencil. Tell her how, ask her how that came about. You know, what was the design based around? You know, tell us the story behind that.

Caroline Weaver: Yeah, so that pencil is one that is, well, also one of our best sellers and one of my personal favorites. And that came about because Caran d'Ache makes this jumbo pencil that's black. It's, like, painted matte black like that. And the wood is dyed black. And it's really smooth. It's, like, the only example of, like, a really adult jumbo pencil that I know of, which is kind of the appeal of it because jumbo pencils are really awesome, but most people think that they're just for kids because that's how they're usually marketed. But I, like, on a day-to-day basis, only use, like, regular size pencils just because they're more practical. I don't have to carry, like, a double hole sharpener all the time. And so we had been talking with our friends at Caran d'Ache about, like, what would it be like if we took this pencil, which we love, which we think is, like, super sophisticated and made it smaller.

Caroline Weaver: And so we talked about it a little bit. And then out of nowhere, they just, like, sent this prototype to me. And that was that. We sent over our branding, and that was it. I think if you're outside of the U.S., you can have that pencil with your branding on it. That's something that they'll let you do. But we've got the exclusive in the U.S. And it's, yeah, it's a really great pencil, and it has really good point of retention. It's the same core that's in a Swiss wood pencil, if you're familiar with those. It's really great because it's a little bit dark. It feels very, very smooth, but it holds its point really well, which is something that people are always looking for.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, that's one of my favorite just to write with. I really like that core. It's super smooth and holds its point forever. That's what I'm using. You asked me before the show started, what pencil were you writing with? That's the pencil I'm using today. And my show notes are being written on your Write Notepads collaboration, the Pocket Ledger book.

Caroline Weaver: Oh.

Cron d'Ache Pencil

Brad Dowdy: So the little spiral bound with the green lines and the Cron d'Ache CWPE Blackwood pencil, which is amazing. So now this other one, collaboration you've done recently with Musgrave, the Bugle 1816 pencil. Tell me about that one because this one's completely new to me. I was unaware of it until probably today. So tell us about that because it looks super interesting. It's crazy looking. Yeah.

Caroline Weaver: And I actually have a secret to share about that pencil.

Brad Dowdy: We like secrets.

Caroline Weaver: Well, the Bugle is one of our best-selling pencils. It's amazing because it's so simple. It's just round. It doesn't have an eraser on it. First of all, there aren't a lot of round pencils out there these days, which historically is really sad because most pencils used to come in a round shape and they're a lot more comfortable for a lot of people to hold. So the Bugle is round. It's not painted. It just has a clear varnish on it. The text is really simple, very, very nostalgic, printed in white. It has two tiny little bugles even printed on it, like the actual instrument. And they're 25 cents. They're our least expensive pencil. People buy them like 30 at a time because they're really reliable, just like really simple, amazing American pencil. They're made in Tennessee. So Musgrave, who makes them, Lynn at Musgrave, randomly, like about a month ago, sent me a package with no note in it, like nothing. And it wasn't even a package. It was just like a small bubble mailer. And I opened it and inside was just like a handful of these pencils that were round, that were half regular wood and half black. And I emailed her and was like, what are these? Where did these come from? Like, why did you send them? And she was like, oh, those were an accident.

Caroline Weaver: Somehow like the black slats and the regular slats got mixed. And this is the pencil that happened. And we wanted to show them to you in case there was something you might want to do with them. And so, yeah, that's what happened. And so I told her like, okay, well, the Bugles are best-selling pencil. Like, can we just slap that branding on there, maybe in a different foil color and make it like a special edition Bugle? And she really did not like that idea. She really wanted something like a little bit more like about us and a little bit more like personalized. And yeah, but then we ended up like, I ended up fighting around that one and that's what we did. And we just put them online yesterday and they've been really popular. It's even that one's, it's a 35 cent pencil and it's kind of wacky looking. We initially, when we first saw them, we're really excited about it being like a limited edition to us because the way that it's like half black looks like those like giant black and white cookies that we have here in New York. And so we were like, oh, it's like a New York cookie pencil. And so we were very excited about that. But yeah, the whole thing was an accident and it was just a matter of us figuring out what to do with this like weird, awesome accident.

Brad Dowdy: That's awesome. That's how the best stuff comes about. I tell you what, that's really, really cool to hear.

Caroline Weaver: Yeah, yeah. I'm grateful that I'm the one these people come to when they want to figure these things out.

Brad Dowdy: We have something weird.

Myke Hurley: Can you help? Yeah.

Brad Dowdy: Well, that's good because you can see the weirdness and you either get it immediately you can say this is a thing or you go, yeah, that's actually weird and no thank you.

Caroline Weaver: Yeah.

Brad Dowdy: All right. So this next one's from Sebastian. He wants to know as someone who doesn't get pencils, I wonder how you talk to non-pencil people about pencils. He says, my thinking is with fountain pens today, a lot of people have never even considered them as an option. So using one becomes special and talking about it shows you're in some way interested in a special hobby. Pencils seem so ubiquitous and ordinary. If you wanted to get me hooked or just talk to someone who's not even into stationery, what sets a good pencil apart from a regular yellow school pencil?

Caroline Weaver: That is a question I get on an everyday basis in the shop. Yes. So there's a little bit of a problem that especially here in the US, adults don't often use pencils because they assume that they're all the same, that they're all like the garbage that you can buy at Staples, like the just like not even branded, just like really bad, broken pencils, or even Ticonderoga's, which are really hit or miss these days because ever since their production left the US, they've been a little bit off. But we're like, on a whole, we're not exposed to great pencils just like in everyday shops, in your office supply stores, even a lot of times online. Target has some decent ones. And so, yeah, when anyone's skeptical, when anyone like doesn't get it or thinks like, okay, like a pencil is a pencil.

Caroline Weaver: I mean, that's exactly why my shop exists is so that I can prove to people that a pencil is not just a pencil.

Caroline Weaver: But yeah, I would just, yeah, my advice for that is that you just need to try some other pencils. And we actually have a sampler pack for that for people who don't get it, or people who are like new and just like don't know where to start, especially that, that people just like don't know where to start because it's very overwhelming. But yeah, we get that all the time in the shop when people will come in, like families will come in and like half the family will be like really into it and like the other half will just kind of like stand against the wall, like really confused as to why everybody's like freaking out over like a measly pencil. And yeah, those people I try to keep an eye on and try to like lure them to a test station so they can try them out. And nine times out of 10, they're very surprised and end up leaving with something because they realize that like these things can be awesome. And they're so nostalgic too, like the smell of like a freshly sharpened cedar pencil is unbeatable. But yeah, I think, I think a lot of people just forget that pencils can be really pleasurable.

Brad Dowdy: Yep. Yep. I like that. You know, it's, it's why you exist. I think that's a, that's a perfect way to say that. All right. We're going to get you out on a, on a little fun one here. And this is from Trent. And he wants to know which pencils burn the best as part of a small offering to my pen collection. So Trent must not be a pencil fan and he has to, you know, they have to go to the altar of his, of his pen collection and the pencil is going to be an offering. So what pencils burn the best for Trent here?

Caroline Weaver: Jeez. We're like literally burning them?

Brad Dowdy: That was wrong, wasn't it, Caroline? That was wrong, Trent.

Caroline Weaver: How did you accept this question? Well, I feel like we should

Myke Hurley: give Trent something that's going to be a problem for him, you know? Yeah. Like something that would give off a real bad smell so he'll never do it again.

Caroline Weaver: Yeah. We're going to pick like a, a very old pencil with like toxic paint. Ooh,

Myke Hurley: there we go. I like that. I'll teach you, Trent.

Caroline Weaver: Like an old, like World War I era indelible pencil. Yeah.

Brad Dowdy: Get some legit lead poisoning. in there.

Caroline Weaver: Yep.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah.

Caroline Weaver: No, I think, ooh, I think there shouldn't be paint. Definitely not a ferrule and an eraser. You don't want to be burning that and that would like look crazy because it would just like start sparking. That's not good. We would need, actually, you know what would actually look really pretty? Viking in Denmark make a pencil called the Rollo that's like this mini jumbo pencil. It's like the size between a jumbo and a regular size pencil that's completely unfinished and it's like kind of chunky. Definitely not toxic. If I trust anyone, it's probably, it's probably our nice friends in Denmark. So maybe that, if you really are going to burn a pencil or maybe we should just make this about the pencil and just like go to Staples and buy those really, really bad ones.

Brad Dowdy: That's right.

Caroline Weaver: And burn them. But I do sometimes, if I save, if I have a bowl of pencil shavings on my kitchen counter, which I very frequently do, I have a fireplace in my living room so I just throw the shavings in the fire. They spark like the, like the bits of graphite spark and it's really, it's really kind of fun. That's a good fire starter.

Pencil Shavings

Brad Dowdy: Well, that's fantastic. And Caroline, you're fantastic and your shop's fantastic and we love everything that you do and thank you so much for finding the time to put up with our nonsense today and visit with the pen people for a while because we have, I think we've become pencil converts because of you and that's a big deal and we really, really appreciate you.

Caroline Weaver: Wow, thank you. This was so fun.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, and we will have to do it again where we can, we can nerd out on some of the, the really technical details like that we get into with the, the pens and stuff that'll give me time to do some more research and really get into the down and dirty.

Myke Hurley: You should set us some challenges, Caroline, you know, some, some, some pencil challenges that we have to complete and we can give some feedback on them or something.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah.

Caroline Weaver: That'll be fun if you get all the pencil ease involved.

Brad Dowdy: We'll do that. So we will get you back soon and thanks again for doing this. Tell everyone, you know, before we get out where they can find you online if they are not familiar with what you do.

Caroline Weaver: Yeah. So you can find us on Instagram at CW Pencil Enterprise on Twitter at CW Pencils. I'll admit I'm not that good, I'm not that good at Twitter and our website is CW Pencils dot com and we're also on Facebook.

Brad Dowdy: Awesome. Thank you so much. Myke, you can get us out of here today. Yeah, so I guess

Myke Hurley: I did mention at the very start of the show that it is the calm before the storm and the calm is Caroline, the storm is Atlanta. So next, the next week's episode of the show will be out a little bit later than usual. It'll be out on the weekend because we are going to be together again for the third time in Atlanta, Georgia at the Atlanta Pencils and we're going to be recording our show in person live with Anna and maybe a special guest or two and as we mentioned before, so this will be recorded on video. The video will be available to backers of the Kickstarter campaign but the audio will be the live episode released as normal with our audience. If you're going to be in Atlanta, there will be seats. We don't, I can't confirm how many. I can't confirm you will definitely get a seat. We will work this out. There will be more information in the Pen Addict Slack and Twitter.

Brad Dowdy: You need to come see me in Atlanta.

Myke Hurley: You will need to come to the Knox store. We'll have a table. Me and Brad will be at the table all day, every day, forever, all day. You can come and get... Except when we're at Waffle House. Yeah, except when we're at Waffle House. But that's only when everything's all closed up. I guess we'll have tickets or something, right? Yes. Which you will need. There you go. You will need one of those tickets to get in the room because if it's anything like last year, there are more people than we can fit in the room. It's as big a room as we can get. We'll put as many chairs in there as we can. But like having pencils in a small room, there can be a fire risk when there's too many people in a room. So we're very excited. I can't believe we're doing this again. Thank you to everyone that's allowing us to do this by helping us out. So keep in touch with me and Brad on the social networks and the Pen Addict Slack to get all the details that you need. And next week, we'll have our third live recording from Atlanta available to you. But for that, for this week, thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much to our lovely sponsors for this week's episode, the five folk over at Harry's, Pen Chalet, and Mac Weldon. If you want to find Brad online, go to penaddict.com and knock.co. You can go to atdowdyism on Twitter, at penchalet on Instagram. I am imike. And once again, Caroline, thank you so much for joining us. This has been an absolute thrill and a pleasure and I am so happy we finally had you on the show.

Caroline Weaver: Thank you.

Myke Hurley: And everybody out there in Pen Addict Podcast land, we'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye, everybody. Goodbye, everybody.

Caroline Weaver: Bye, everybody. Bye, everybody.