Editing The Pen Addict 362/transcript

{{Infobox podcast transcript
| name            = The Pen Addict
| number          = 362
| title           = A Blueprint of the Nib Grind
| date            = June 5th, 2019
| hosts           = [[Brad Dowdy]]<br>
[[Myke Hurley]]
| guests          = [[Dan Smith]]
| link            = [https://www.relay.fm/penaddict/362 Episode 362]
| audiolink       = [https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.libsyn.com/thepenaddict/The_Pen_Addict_362.mp3 Audio Episode 362]
| length          = 63
}}

'''Myke Hurley:''' From RelayFM, this is The Pen Addict episode 362, and today's show is brought to you by Pen Chalet and our friends over at Moo. My name is Myke Hurley, and I am joined by Mr. Brad Dowdy. Hi, Brad Dowdy.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Hey, Myke Hurley. Long time no talk. How are you?

'''Myke Hurley:''' Why are you always going to break the fourth wall for?

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Because I know it drives you up the wall.

'''Myke Hurley:''' We can just, illusions, illusions. This is a week for part, right? We can do that.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Well, I do have a question before we bring in our special guest once again. I don't know, in the history of podcasting, has there ever been a two-part podcast? I feel like we're breaking ground here. Like, this is historical podcasting moment, right? Never been done before? I would say we're breaking our ground. I don't think we're breaking podcasting ground in general. So someone has actually done like a two-part podcast before. Probably. Probably. That's unfortunate. That's unfortunate. Because, Myke, we have our good friend and guest, Mr. Dan Smith from the Nib Smith, back once again this week. How's it going, Dan?

'''Dan Smith:''' It's going great. I'm so honored I could be a part of this historical moment.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' That's right. I'm telling you, Dan, this is podcast history in the making. I think Myke's wrong. This is Myke is wrong all over again. I mean, he might be the podcasting Don. He might know a lot of people and a lot of things. I think he might be wrong in this case.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Because one thing I don't know is history.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Oh, boy. Well, I do know history, Myke. As in last week's episode is historical now. And if you did not catch it for whatever reason, you want to go back and listen to part one of Myke and myself's conversation with Dan Smith about his beginnings in the fountain pen world. His transition into an FP geek and then into a Nib Smith and now into apparently we're working on a world takeover path. Is that where we're headed, Dan?

'''Dan Smith:''' Yeah, I think so.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yeah, I think we're going full world takeover. But the real reason I wanted to get you on the show, and I didn't mention it last episode, but I have been a little bit slack in getting you on here because people ask me all the time about nib grinds, right? That's one of the most frequent questions we get just in general because I talk about them all the time. Myke talks about them all the time. And I've always said, well, let me get Dan on. And I think I asked you probably like a year ago, if not more than that. And you said, and like instantly, yeah, anytime, let me know. And then Brad does nothing as he normally does. And then he forgets about it until like six months. And someone asked a question that he can't answer. And I was like, oh, I should get Dan on again. And then again, I ask you and you say, yeah, man, anytime. And then I don't follow through. But I followed through this time, damn it. And we're doing this and we have all the nib grinding questions from all the listeners. So that's what this episode is going to be about. We're going to pick your brain about the hows and whys and the nuts and bolts of nib grinding. We're going to talk about different pens, different products, you know, a lot different from last episode where we talk about history. This time we're going to basically do a full episode of Ask Dan. What do you think?

'''Dan Smith:''' It's awesome. Let's get into it, man.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' All right. I'm going to go. We got to start at the 101 level. What is a nib grind and why do I want one?

'''Dan Smith:''' So a nib grind is exactly literally what it sounds like. I grind the tip of the nib into a different shape and someone would want that to add a little bit of character to their writing. So instead of a uniform line in all directions, like you would get with a ballpoint or rollerball, a grind will change the thickness depending on which direction the nib is going. You'll get thin lines and thick lines and it just adds a really pleasing look to the resulting line.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' So we're taking our stock pen and we're almost doing it. I call it like a customization for me, right? Like I'm going to make it better for me. And the biggest question is how do I determine what's the best for me? It's like, how do you explain that to a customer who's never done, you know, or never even considered having, you know, their standard medium point Pelican worked on before? Like, how do you, would you explain that to someone who's never had a nib grind before?

'''Dan Smith:''' Um, I don't know if I necessarily say there's a best grind for them. There, there might be one that, you know, works a little better or, um, maybe fits their hand, but a lot of people can really use about anything I offer. Um, I think it sort of just comes down to seeing how they hold the pen, um, how they write mostly, you know, whether it's in cursive or all caps. Um, and then kind of going with the thickness of the line that they're after. And I can kind of make some recommendations based on that.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' So when you are sitting down to grind a nib into whichever shape, which we'll, we'll talk about all the shapes here in a minute. What are the types of tools that you're using?

'''Dan Smith:''' So for me, I use a Dremel with two different grinding wheels. One's a, a diamond coated disc, uh, for removing lots of material quickly or for especially hard tipping materials. And then I have one that's more of a kind of a buffing wheel that will polish all those surfaces. I just ground. And then I use a variety of, of polishing cloths, um, you know, micro mesh and, uh, uh, mylar film, uh, to really finish off the grind, smooth it and, and get it, um, into the final steps.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' What I've always found the most interesting, um, when I see any nib grinder in action is how can you actually see what you're doing? What tools do you use? Because I'm a blind person without these glasses and there's no way I could even hold up a nib to my face close enough to be able to do work on it. How do you see what you're doing?

'''Dan Smith:''' Early on. Well, so I use like that little headset kind of magnifier thing, and that helps a little bit. Um, but really early on, it was just lots of checking with a loop, um, you know, to see what materials being taken off and where, and then after you've been doing it so long, it's, it's really just feel now. I mean, I could probably go through an entire grind without looking at it once and probably be about 90% on. Um, it's, it's just, I'll, I'll check it every now and then with, with the loop just to make sure I'm, you know, on point and where I need to be. But, um, after so long, you just get a feel for it.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' So has your eye prescription changed since you've been doing this?

'''Dan Smith:''' Yeah, I get it checked regularly.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' I couldn't be more serious about these questions. Like this is like my biggest question with any nib grinders. Like, how are you not blind yet? Because this would kill me. Like, I don't know how you do it. It's amazing. So you've got everything set up. What type of grinds are the most popular that you, that you do?

'''Dan Smith:''' Um, I'd probably have to say curse of italic is the most popular. Um, but then a really close second would be architect for me. Um, wow. That's surprising. Yeah. I do a lot of architects, especially at shows. Um, and I think because at, at a show where people can get that instant feedback, it, the architect is, is better suited for that. Um, even though, I mean, I still get excellent results online, you know, and then when I send them to people, but there's just something about having it done in person that I do a lot of them at shows. Yeah.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yeah. It's very particular. So let's go through a couple of these and a little bit more detail. So curse of italic, that's what I would guess would be the most popular. And from an outsider's perspective, like myself, you're taking a rounded tip nib and essentially kind of squaring it off and sharpening the edges. So you get quite a bit of line variation between your horizontal and vertical strokes. But as someone who actually does this for a living, how would you describe a curse of italic nib?

'''Dan Smith:''' So a curse of italic and a stub, you're going to have to talk about these two hand in hand. Yeah, definitely similar. They're both going to offer a thick vertical stroke and a thin horizontal stroke. The difference comes in a stub is going to be smoother. It's going to have a lot more rounded edges. It's going to feel closer to an unmodified round nib and its smoothness. And the line thick or the line variation isn't going to be as pronounced as the curse of italic. So the curse of italic is going to have a much thinner horizontal stroke. It's going to be just a little bit sharper on the edges. And it's going to provide much more pronounced line variation.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' And then contrast those with an architect, which I'm still kind of taking in the feedback that you said. That's your second most popular grind at shows. Because I consider that an extreme type of grind. Like that is you need to know what you're getting into to get that. And I guess at pen shows a lot of people do know that. But how does that grind contrast to your curse of italics and stubs for people who don't know?

'''Dan Smith:''' It's going to be basically the opposite of a stub or curse of italic. An architect is going to give you a thin vertical stroke and a thick horizontal stroke.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' So do you have to give special instructions when you're doing an architect grind for people's expectations? Because it's very unnatural to most people. Now some people might have a natural hand movement that makes it work flawlessly. But for me, when I use an architect grind, which I have yours and I love it, I have to think about it. I don't have to think about when I'm writing with a stub. When I'm writing with an architect, I have to think about it. Do you have any caveats when you're talking to people about getting their first architect grind?

'''Dan Smith:''' So the architect is much more dependent on the angle the pen is held. So whether you hold the pen lower or more steeper, that matters. And I try to match that to the customer's grip so they don't have to focus on how they hold the pen. They can just hold it naturally and the pen will work for them. And that's one reason why it is so popular. So it shows because I can more easily customize it to the person's natural grip. But so, yeah, they need to know about that. And then the architect does feel different than a stub or cursive italic. There's usually a little bit more feedback to that nib. But that can change depending on how it's ground. I can grind the architect more like a cursive italic so that line variation is really pronounced. So you get those really crisp lines, that really thin vertical. Or I can make it more like a stub where it's softer and smoother. But that line variation is a little more subtle. So it can kind of go both ways there.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Do you have any difficulty? Well, not difficulty because you're good at all of them. But are certain nib grinds harder to execute than others?

'''Dan Smith:''' Yeah, for sure. Needle points can be tricky at times. And when I say needle point, so there's Japanese extra fine. Needle point would be finer than that. Like, say, Platinum's UEF or Sailor's Super Extra Fine, you know, the Saibutagi. Yeah, like the .01 type of range. Right, right. Getting consistent results on that can be tricky. And that's mostly due to how stiff or soft the nib itself is. I tend to get better results on stiffer nibs with needle points. So just something to keep in mind there.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yeah, and do you charge more for that difficulty? Like, if you know, like, do specific nib grinds have specific price points based on their difficulty?

'''Dan Smith:''' I don't know if it's so much based on difficulty, but more the time it takes to complete that grind. Sure, sure, sure. So, yeah, needle points, architects, you know, they take longer. And then I can do, like, the Naganata Tagi, the Sailor grind. And that's got more complex geometry to it. It takes longer. I really only do that one by special request.



== Nib Grind Learning ==


'''Myke Hurley:''' How would you learn that? Like, if that's a specific grind that Sailor have done, like, how do you learn how to do that?

'''Dan Smith:''' I bought one of the nibs, and I use it as a model. So you just study it and replicate it as best as you can.

'''Myke Hurley:''' That's really fascinating.

'''Dan Smith:''' Yeah. Yeah. I just, I'm constantly, you know, checking it against my grind. I write with it, make sure the results are the same. And, yeah, that's kind of how I learn new ones.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' So you kind of alluded to this a second ago, but how much does the nib material affect the results, like, between a steel nib and a gold nib? Like, if I walked up and said, Dan, I want an architect grind, and I have this big, lamy, broad steel nib, and I have this Pelican, you know, broad or medium gold nib, what can I expect the results to be different? Like, would I expect their results to be different, or am I going to get the same general feel, like, outside of just the overall softness of the nib?



== Nib Material Impact ==


'''Dan Smith:''' Yeah. The nib material itself isn't going to play that big of a role in the result. It's really going to be the size and shape of the tipping and then how stiff or soft that nib is.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Okay. So the end result, you should feel, you know, like, if I'm getting a cursive italic nib, it's going to generally feel the same outside of just whatever the nib's properties are, right? Like, steel, okay, it's probably going to be stiffer gold, maybe a little bit softer, maybe a little bit more give. Exactly. Do you have to adjust the grind? Like, say if I was getting a cursive italic, would you grind it differently on a gold nib than a stub nib, all things, you know, being equal because of, like, the little bit more give that a gold nib might have?

'''Dan Smith:''' Uh, you have to kind of pay attention to the inside edge of the grind, like where the nib slit is. With a softer nib, and especially if a person applies more pressure, that inside edge is going to dig down into the paper more.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yep.

'''Dan Smith:''' So this also plays into customizing the nib for the person itself, where if they have a light touch, they're not going to feel that. So if you smooth that inside edge, it's going to result in kind of a baby's bottom, or that's how it's going to act like them. They're probably going to get hard starts and things like that, where if they have, where if they apply more pressure, they're, they're not going to notice it. They're going to get that smooth nib. Um, so softer nibs can be a little bit more tricky. Um, but generally it's, they're all ground the same.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' So if I'm a brand new fountain pen user, like I'm coming to my first pen show, and I've listened to these two yokels on this podcast talk about various pens and various nib grinds. Speak for yourself. And they've made up all kinds of fancy words that I don't know, but I know I'm going to go to Dan's table and let's just for discussion sake, let's pick up a, I don't know, a sailor pro gear with a medium nib. Okay. How would the conversation go when I say I want to grind, but I don't know what I want because you have to get that a lot. I would guess.

'''Dan Smith:''' Oh yeah. Um, and really I just start with, um, having them, uh, right with the pen and, and I kind of just watch them see, um, how they hold the pen, how they typically write, uh, whether it's, you know, cursive or, or print as kind of, I mentioned before. And usually a stub is, is always a good starting point for most people. Um, you know, it's, it's going to be really smooth. It's going to give them good line variation in most instances, and we can go from there. But if I see someone who always writes in cursive, um, you know, I might go towards more of a cursive italic and, and really get that line variation to pop really add a lot of character to the writing. Um, if I see that they, they write smaller and only in all caps, I might recommend a fine or medium fine architect. Um, cause that's really going to change the look of the writing. Um, so it's just kind of getting to know them and how they write.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' So I think it goes without saying, because you've already said it several times, but I'm going to repeat it. It really makes a big difference if that person's sitting in front of you, as opposed to mailing you a pen saying, put an architect grind on this. Right.

'''Dan Smith:''' Yeah, absolutely.



== Customer Feedback ==


'''Brad Dowdy:''' Like how, like how, how much, like, do you feel like you get, you get that instant feedback with someone? Do you have a greater, I don't know if, if someone's sending it through mail, does it cost you more in time? Because you don't know what the results are going to be. There's back and forth in, you know, email saying, trying to decide in words how to make this grind. Like, is there a lot more overhead just mentally and time-wise doing it via mail order?

'''Dan Smith:''' Uh, initially. Yeah. Um, getting that first one, right. Um, making sure they're happy with it and it's working for them. Um, there's, there's definitely a lot more back and forth. Um, and even if they have to send it back for an adjustment, um, you know, that's taking care of and no charge, things like that. Um, but after that, once we've done it before and I've got something to refer back to grinds after that are usually no problem.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Gotcha. Do you have general kind of like general notes on people? Like, do you keep kind of like an idea?

'''Dan Smith:''' I save all the communications and notes from orders and things like that. So I can always refer back to it. Yeah. Good.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Cool. You have dossiers.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' We don't want to know what's in those, Myke. With all the different nibs that you've seen over the years, do you have anything you want to share about things you've learned between? I don't want to put you on the spot between, you know, okay, you might have a vendor now, but are there brands that are easier to work on than others? Are there some that just make you cringe and you just, you know, say, okay, we're going in, we're going to do this. You know, are there some that are challenges?

'''Dan Smith:''' Um, oh yeah, for sure. Um, you know, when I was, uh, accepting mail-in orders for pens, I was getting a lot of Visconti.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Mm-hmm.

'''Dan Smith:''' And now, I mean, I haven't been taking orders for about a year now and I, I've heard things have improved there and I haven't, I don't have a lot of direct, uh, contact with the, with the nibs recently. So I, I've heard things have improved and I hope they have, but in the past it was, uh, Visconti. Um, I think now the easiest for me to work on is, is sailor. Um, for some reason I just always get excellent results grinding their nibs. Um, they've probably got the most consistent, uh, quality control on, on their nibs and then anyone else that I deal with. Uh, I, I rarely have to touch them out of the box. Um, one interesting, um, thing that I've learned is that pilots tipping is incredibly hard. It's, it's much harder than everyone else's tipping material. Interesting. Yeah. When, when I grind their nibs, I have to start with, uh, the, the diamond wheel because it just takes forever.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Otherwise. And with that, is that pretty consistent from like extra fine up to broad? Like you, it's pretty consistent between those.

'''Dan Smith:''' Yeah.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Well, as far as, as far as the tipping, the tip, as far as the tipping firmness, right. There's no real variation. All is across the board.

'''Dan Smith:''' Right. Yeah. Um, because I think as far as the process go, they, they make their own tipping material. Like they have, you know, their own composition and everything. And so, yeah, it's, it's consistent from all nib sizes. Interesting.



== Listener Questions ==


'''Brad Dowdy:''' Interesting. See, that's good to know. That's why we gotta, that's why we gotta have you on here. So, um, um, we have a bunch of listener questions. To get to. And there's some interesting ones. And, you know, I could go through all of them now, just asking you questions, you know, rapid fire. But I want to get these listeners involved. And we took in a bunch, Myke. So, let's talk about one of our good friends at Pen Chalet. Wonderful supporter of this podcast. And, uh, let's see what they have for us this week, Myke, before we get into these questions.

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'''Brad Dowdy:''' All right, Dan, real quick, before we get into specific questions, can you give me a general price point idea for, let's say, the most basic grinds, cursive, italics, stub, needlepoint, architect, just so people who don't have any experience doing this just kind of have an idea in their head of what they're looking at if they're interested?

'''Dan Smith:''' Yeah, so there's basically two price points. Stubs and cursive italics are $45, and then needlepoints and architects are $60.

'''Dan Smith:''' Obliques, they're a little bit more, they're $50. And then Tunis Moose, they're included at no charge when you buy a pen from me, but at a show, if you bring a pen, that's $25.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Gotcha. Okay, yeah, that makes sense. And that's, you know, pretty consistent, you know, for the type of work that I've certainly had. And I find the end results of spending that extra money well worth it to really get the writing experience that I want. Like, we've joked about the Sailor Pro Gear Ocean before, but it's not the same pen with a stock nib for me. The way I write, the way I have a block style lettering, and when I get, like, a stub grind on a fine Japanese nib, that makes my handwriting just so much more enjoyable for me. So that's why I personally enjoy getting nibs ground, and I am more than happy to pay that price to have something so enjoyable. All right, let's get into it, Dan. From our friend, Incantadora. Dan, what is your favorite nib to write with?

'''Dan Smith:''' Oh, that's an easy one. Sailor Fine nib.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Really? That's... Oh, yeah. Okay, so I feel like I know you. Like, I don't know you, like, really, really well, but I know you pretty good, and I know you're a Sailor fan. That is not at all what I expected. I thought we were going to, like, some German medium nib, Mont Blanc or Pelican. Like, I thought we were going big honking nib, not fine Japanese nib.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Ground upside down on a winter's morning.

'''Myke Hurley:''' March of 2013. It's a very specific grain.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Why? Why?

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Why the Sailor?

'''Dan Smith:''' It's just, I like the way it feels. I like the size.

'''Dan Smith:''' It's just perfect for my writing.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yeah, I mean, you're not getting any argument from me whatsoever. I just didn't think that was going to be the answer. I mean, that's it for me. Like, if you give me, tell me to pick one nib to use just for the rest of my life, it's probably that one. And that's very cool. Now, separate from that, do you have a favorite nib to grind? Is there a brand size style material that you know you're going to get good results with every time and you go, you really much enjoy?

'''Dan Smith:''' Pretty much any Sailor size. Yeah. Whether it's extra fine or Zoom or music or whatever. I know if I'm grinding on a Sailor, it's going to come out awesome.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' So, wait a minute. Are you sending this link to the Sailor distributor when we're done? Like, do you need something from them? Maybe. Also, from Anna, is there any nib modifications or grinds that you will not do? Like, will someone ask you to do something to their nib that you will refuse to do?

'''Dan Smith:''' No, not really. Not that I can think of.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Well, like, I guess a separate question to be, is there a specific type of grind that someone might ask for that is something that you would push back against and be like, are you sure about this?

'''Dan Smith:''' I suppose if it was on, like, a really rare vintage pen, I would want to make sure they're really certain that they want that.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' We have a question. We have that question.

'''Dan Smith:''' That's probably the only one I would push back. I guess, well, there is one. I don't add flex to nibs just because the outcome is so uncertain and you never – it's hard to tell how much experience the customer has with it. And it's just – it's not – I've not had good experiences with it in the past, so I don't do added flex.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' That's a different set of expectations too, right? Right. It is. I mean, you can – number one, you being the nib grinder can do certain things, but is that going to match the results of the expectations of your customer? And that's a hard thing to line up, I would imagine. And, like, me and you will come to pretty good terms on a curse of italic, but we're going to have a lot harder time getting there on a flex. I can totally, totally see that. All right. Last one from Anna. What's your favorite ink?

'''Dan Smith:''' I don't know if I have, like, one specific color. I would say I use a lot of sailor ink and a lot of Mont Blanc.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' What is happening here? It's – hey, they make really good products, man. I know. You should just be on this podcast with us. Like, man, you're catching me all off guard with the sailors.

'''Dan Smith:''' Well, now that I'm doing this full time, my Wednesdays are open, so. Yeah.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' I do follow your Instagram, and you, Myke, and I can get into an entire offshoot Sailor Limited edition discussion because I know you're a big fan of those things too, right?

'''Dan Smith:''' I did just have two arrive yesterday, and I've got four more on the way.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Nice. Yeah. A bit of a problem. Yeah. Myke, you have competition now. I just need a good Rialo. Yeah. All I need right now is a good Rialo. So, when you find a good Rialo, let me know, Dan, and then I'll be happy. Like, I'm good not being on that train right now, but I do want a good Rialo. So, all right, from Chorok, what is the most unusual nib grind you have ever done? Is that such a thing?

'''Dan Smith:''' Yeah. I had a customer who holds the pen, how do I want to say, very specifically, and they wanted an architect result, but it had to be ground much differently than how I would regularly grind an architect. And so, he basically sent me, like, a blueprint of the nib grind, and with, like, all the angles outlined. Wow. And it was wild, but it was incredibly helpful. And it turned out fantastic. Like, he loved it. But it was definitely the most unusual grind I'd ever done.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Okay. I'm, like, trying to wrap this around my head. So, would you say, like, it almost had to be at a certain angle, like a left-right angle on the grind to work with his specific riding posture?

'''Dan Smith:''' Yeah. It was, the way it was rotated, it was almost like a right oblique, but because of the way he tilted the pen, there were just a lot of extreme angles.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yeah. Yeah. Involved.

'''Dan Smith:''' But, yeah, it was, it turned out great. I was happy with it. He was happy with it.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' I was going to say, that's got to be intimidating on the front end, but, like, to finish it and to be, you know, the customer to be happy with it, that's got to be pretty satisfying. Right? I mean, like. Yeah.

'''Dan Smith:''' Yeah.



== Nib Grind Discussion ==


'''Brad Dowdy:''' That's the best part.

'''Dan Smith:''' I especially love it at shows because when you meet someone who's never had nib work or nib grind and, you know, the first time they write with it when you're done, they just, like, are almost glowing. Like, that's awesome. That's the best part. Love it.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Can I ask, Dan, and you can, you can, no comment on this question if you would so prefer. Have you, have you ever absolutely destroyed someone's nib?

'''Dan Smith:''' Nothing stands out. Okay. I've had, I've had to do it, you know, maybe two or three times. Yeah. You know, adjust it, but, no, I don't think I've ever actually just destroyed someone's nib. Okay. Okay.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' All right. We got a few here from Andrew in the Slack, and this is a very broad question, but I think it's kind of important for a lot of different reasons. What do you see as the future of your specific pen business? More retail type sales or more nib grinds?

'''Dan Smith:''' I think definitely more sales just to keep the business going. I mean, that's where the majority of, you know, profit's going to be made.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Right. Because those are not, those are not equivalents. Yeah. Right.

'''Myke Hurley:''' I would expect the return on investment is, is better for your time as well. Right. On a, on a sale of a pen than a nib grind.

'''Dan Smith:''' Exactly. Um, but because they are so tied together, I think, I mean, it's, it's going to be both. Definitely. I have to focus on both.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Right. So taking those things into account and then the kind of the second part of his question, how does that division of time spent between, okay. Working on the retail side versus working on the grinding, um, is, I guess, is that why you haven't been doing the mail order? Grinding right now, just because of that investment, that time investment.

'''Dan Smith:''' Yes. I mean, almost every pen I sell has some nib work on it. Um, so there is a significant amount of time spent there. Um, but if you factor in all the other stuff involved with just selling, you know, I mean, I do all the website stuff myself. I do all the photography, social media, newsletters, um, responding to customers, you know, all that wrapped together. Um, I do spend more time on that. Um, so it's as sales grow, it is going to become a problem again, where the amount of time I'm spending on grinds is going to overtake everything.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yeah. And he also asks, and I, I wonder this myself, how do you keep track of all of this? You know, what, what pens have, I mean, obviously you have your, your, your backend sales systems and that handle your orders, but how do you keep track of, okay. What's the workflow for this pen that just came in? Does it need just a regular touch up and, you know, smoothing? Do I need a special nib grind? How does that fit in the workflow? Is it first in first out? Is it, you know, length of time? So how does your backend, um, workflow work when you're selling pens online?

'''Dan Smith:''' So, yeah, it's, it's generally, um, first in first out. Um, it's, it doesn't get real complex because of the nib grinds added to it. Um, that's all on the order for me. I'll just go grab them out of inventory. Um, look at each order, perform the work and then, um, set it off to the side for shipping. And my, my wife helps with the shipping. So she takes care of everything after that point. Um, but it doesn't really add much complexity to it. Just a little bit more time for the network.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yeah. Have you invoked child labor yet? Cause you have two young kids. Absolutely. Yeah. They build all the boxes for the shipping.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Heck yeah. Oh, that's awesome. All right. Last one from Andrew. And I'm not even, I'm not sure I totally understand this question, but I think I know what are the advantages and disadvantages of grinding freehand? So I guess what you do is freehand with the Dremel, which is pretty common. And then there's also like more fixed machines that are table based. Like what can you explain like what the differences are that people are seeing at pen shows from different nib grinders and their setups?

'''Dan Smith:''' Yeah. Yeah. So almost everyone has it where the, the grinding device is, is fixed, you know, whether it's a horizontal orientation or the Dremel set up vertically. Um, whereas I hold the Dremel in my left hand and either, you know, brace it against the table or my leg. Um, and I do it that way because I, I changed the orientation of the Dremel quite a bit, depending on, on what I want to do with the nib. And also, so I can get a look at the tipping as I'm grinding. And for me, it's just easier for me to do it that way. I've, I've tried the fixed setups and I've never been able to really adjust to that. I didn't like it that I couldn't see, uh, the exact spot I was grinding on the nib. So the freehand is just easier for me. That's how I prefer to do it. Um, I don't know if there's really any advantage or disadvantage. Um, I mean, if I was going to recommend it to someone else, I would just say, you know, try both setups, try and see what works best for you. I mean, you never know.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yeah, that's cool. Like I, like I see these different setups, but I don't know the reasoning behind why someone would choose X versus Y. So yeah, that's, that's very cool. Very cool to hear that type of answer. All right. We have a highly specific question from like Nate champion. I have often heard individuals describe certain broad nibs as having a stubbish line variation. For example, the Pelican M1000 or the Montblanc BB. Others like the platinum C nib do not. Please set the record straight. He's expecting a lot from you, Dan. Please. You're this is the, this is the record. Please set the record straight, which have line variation and how much also for Pelicans and Montblanc's higher end pens, does it vary by model? Model. So I guess in general, do you find you, you see a lot of Pelicans. Do you, you carry Pelican, right?

'''Dan Smith:''' Yeah, I do.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' So the Pelican broad nibs, do you carry Montblanc?

'''Dan Smith:''' No, I don't.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' But you're very experienced Montblanc user. Oh yeah. Pretty, pretty sure. Do you see basically a stock stub line variation from their broader nibs? I think is what we're trying to get at here.

'''Dan Smith:''' Yeah. From, from German companies, uh, especially when you get into the double broad sizes, you'll absolutely see a stub like line variation Pelican. I've even noticed it down into their medium nibs on some, um, they just shape the tipping differently. Uh, most Japanese companies, their C nibs, the course nibs is what they call it is kind of equivalent to a double broad. I know Platinum and Pilot both have one. Those are really just like Sharpies. I mean, it's, it's a very thick uniform line in all directions. Okay. Um, otherwise, yeah, everyone else, you don't really see that line variation until you get into the double broad widths.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Okay. Yeah. And I think that's probably why I haven't tried one of the course nibs. That style of line just does not suit my handwriting. Um, so, but I have, I have a single Montblanc 149 with a broad nib, which I never thought I would like, but it actually has that kind of line variation just from a stock nib, which I think is pretty cool. So yeah, very cool. So here's, here is that question that I wanted to explore a little bit more. Are there any nibs you think would be wrong to customize? Like, you know, is it a rare vintage pen or, you know, for some reason, is there, are there nibs that you would just leave alone and say, let's not do this today. Let's think about this some more.

'''Dan Smith:''' Yeah. Um, really, uh, it would just be a rare vintage piece. I mean, you know, if it's a super expensive pen that's modern, I'm not going to hesitate. You know, I mean, I, I grind nibs on the Namiki emperor, um, the ones I sell, I've done them at shows, you know, it's, I mean, I don't, I won't hesitate to do that.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Cause I guess the idea there is like, as long as you do it correctly and everyone's happy, if they change their mind later, they can replace it. But if it's a vintage piece, it can't be replaced. Maybe. Exactly. Right. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yeah. I think that's a great question. Like, and I, you know, for someone who provides a service like you do, I always want to know at what point do you say no? Like, are there reasons that make you say no? And you know, something like that, you know, that's pretty cool to hear. Like, okay, maybe there are pens out there that he's like, you know what, let's, let's rethink this a little bit. And I like this last question from like Nate champion as well. You go to a lot of pen shows, Dan, anything attendees should know beyond like the etiquette things that, that Myke and myself discussed. Do you, what do you see big picture? Why sitting behind the table or just hanging out at a pen show? Is there anything you want either first time attendees to know or experienced attendees to know that you kind of have run across recently?

'''Dan Smith:''' Um, I mean, I've listened to a lot of your guys' shows where you talk about that and I can't really think of anything that you guys have missed. Um, you, you cover pretty much everything. I mean, nothing stands out.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yeah. The, the funny thing about that is that we still can't cover it enough. Right. Which I find good. I, it's good. Like we talked about this earlier this year, Myke, it's like, we can't talk about 101 level stuff enough. And we sometimes myself primarily lose sight of that. Right. We, I have to have this understanding that everyone's a beginner sometimes. And, you know, there's this community that is super interested in these things and they may not know everything. And it's really okay to like ask the basic simple questions and to discuss the basic simple things. And you should never hesitate to discuss those things with someone like myself or Myke or like Dan or Jacqueline, who's helping at Dan's table. Like we want those questions. Like we were in your shoes not long ago. You know, we haven't been doing this for 40 and 50 years. It's like, we figured this stuff out ourselves too. So you can always, I guess the best thing I can say is always feel comfortable asking the most basic questions. And that also gives us the kick in the butt to remember that, Hey, there's some people who are just starting down this path and they need to know these things too.

'''Dan Smith:''' So yeah, that's really, I mean, I would just say if you're at a show and you're wondering about something, just, just ask, you know, whether, whether it's a vendor or you met someone or whatever, just, just ask, just talk to them because everyone there is, is very open and willing to answer questions and chat about pens. Like you're not going to offend or bug anyone by asking them a question.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yep. That's the right place to do it. So yeah, that's awesome. All right, Myke, I got a lot more to pepper Dan with, but before I do that, I want to hear what our good friends at Moo have to say this week.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Yeah. We're very, very happy to have Moo back supporting the episode. Moo are an online print and design company. They offer a variety of premium print products, including business cards and postcards, notebooks, so much more. And they deliver to happy customers all around the world. If you're not familiar with Moo, you can order a free sample pack on their website. Just go to moo.com and they'll send you a bunch of their favorite products so you can really get a good sense for what they do. Networking is a super important part of any career, whether you're a designer, a novelist or a CEO. You don't want to get caught out by not having a business card at that important moment. And with Moo, you can be prepared to show your creativity by having amazing business cards made. Great design is at the heart of what Moo does. And there's nothing like a slick, well-made business card. They're super easy to design and order. And Moo's business cards offer all the special and fantastic finishes and touches like gold foil, race spot gloss and letterpress. These are what make Moo's business cards unique and help your business get noticed and stand out from the crowd. Moo, they make just wonderful cards. So I have my business cards and have had my business cards made by Moo for years. I wouldn't go anywhere else. I upload my own designs. They have a great system for that. But if you're not into designing your own card, they recently rolled out beautiful new templates of business cards, drawing inspiration from trends that they've seen amongst their most creative customers. So you don't have to have a necessarily artistic side of yourself. If you know what you want, Moo can help you make it. I really, really love Moo's products. They are super famous for their business cards, but they offer a full suite of products, including postcards and invitations and letterheads, stickers, flyers. They have notebooks as well, which I absolutely love their notebook. I've used their hardcover notebook all the time. It has a really wonderful cover. I love that it lays flat. Whatever you need, Moo have you covered with their fantastic customization options and their overall wonderful quality of their products. You can get 15% off your order right now when you spend over $50 at Moo.com by using the promo code PRINTMOO. That's all one word, PRINTMOO. That is Moo.com, the promo code PRINTMOO to get 15% off when you spend $50 or more. Our thanks to Moo for their support of this show and RelayFM. Moo, let's get physical.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' So Flanker358 asks a question that you've already answered in your favorite factory nib. And, you know, the sailor find seems to be kind of like a personal favorite. So I'm going to turn this around a little bit and ask you what companies are doing interesting things with nibs right now that you enjoy seeing?

'''Dan Smith:''' Well, so I'll get to that in a second. But actually, my favorite factory nib is the sailor Naginata Tagi.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Okay, well, that's not fair. You're just being mean now.

'''Dan Smith:''' Well, so the complexity of that grind and then the results you get with it is incredible. I mean, so that's my favorite one to use. I can't really use it on a daily basis, but I would have to say that's my favorite.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Okay, that's cool. That's always been on the short list for me. It's like I can't get over the size factor of it a little bit, like the daily driver type aspect of it, which is why I've always kind of hesitated whenever I've had the opportunity to purchase one. But maybe one of these days, maybe you'll talk me into it. But yeah, so what do you see just in the, not necessarily the pin market as a whole, but the nibs themselves, do you see any changes in some of the more modern companies that you're carrying, be it, you know, Aurora, Parrot, Pelican, Sailor, you know, Leonardo being a new option for you? Is anyone doing anything interesting that you're going, huh, this is new and different. I like where this is headed.

'''Dan Smith:''' Um, a little bit. Yeah. Um, we're starting to see a little bit more of kind of a softer kind of semi flex nib being introduced from several companies. It's nice that companies are attempting this. I can't say I'm, I'm blown away by the results. Um, I think you've really got to, um, temper people's expectations. Um, you know, let them know what they're getting ahead of time with those. Um, but one thing I am very impressed with is Aurora's, uh, ability to, to create and come out with, with new nib grinds. And one that they've recently done is called the Gocha nib. It's, uh, G-O-C-C-I-A. I don't know exactly how you say it, but it's very, very similar to Sailor's Naginata Togi. And they're offering it in three different sizes. Um, you, you get that same variation and line thickness as you, you know, raise and lower the angle of the pin. And it's, it's actually really cool to see a company that's been around for a hundred years, introduce such a complex, uh, nib grind, uh, worldwide.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' I couldn't agree with that more that I like to see that, right? Everyone can make their, you know, extra fine to broad nibs, right? But to take the chance to do something a little bit different and introduce that as part of the lineup, I'm always going to support that. So I think that's, that's pretty cool to see. All right. Next questions from someone, you know, very well. Um, Inkpothesis asks, what's been the best part of growing your business over the last couple of years? It's been a lot of change in the last two or three years for you. What's been the best part?



== Community Focus ==


'''Dan Smith:''' Really just meeting all the people in the community. I mean, being able to meet them in person, um, connect with them at shows online, uh, build all these new relationships. I mean, I've got so many great friends that I've made over the past eight, 10 years from being in this community. Um, I really couldn't have asked for anything better.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yeah. This community is fun, isn't it? Like we're all, we're all about like fun and helpfulness and openness and positivity. Like I really, really believe in that. It's just a spectacular community. And I'm just super glad you're a part of it and we're a part of it. And, you know, everyone we get to see at pen shows and, you know, just out and about or even talking online. It's just, it brings a smile to my face all the time. So what's been tough? Like you've had some tough decisions to make recently too. So what kind of challenges have you run up against?

'''Dan Smith:''' Um, well, really finding the time just to do everything. Um, hopefully that's going to be a little bit easier now. Um, but there's just so many aspects of the business trying to do it all yourself can really be overwhelming a lot of times. Yeah. Um, so I'm, yeah, just finding the time to do everything.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Figuring that out now. Yeah. So, um, how would you describe the Nibsmith in a market full of retailers? I mean, let's face it. You have a lot of competition just for retail business. How would you give me the, uh, give me the elevator pitch for the Nibsmith.

'''Dan Smith:''' When you buy a pen from me, it's going to work.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' I like it.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' I like it. Yeah. I, like I said before, and we discussed this last week that I think your business model, the different setup of your business model is very important in this marketplace, right? The very hands-on customer centric, give me something a little bit extra that I can't get everywhere. Where sets your, sets you apart, uh, from that. And was that a conscious decision? Because to be perfectly honest, you're eating into your profits by offering these services.

'''Dan Smith:''' Yeah, absolutely. Um, but it's definitely an advantage that I have over everyone else and I'm going to keep that for as long as I can. I mean, it's definitely going to be a part of the business for as long as I can keep doing it.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Nice. Nice. So what, when you're out at pen shows now, and I, I've seen you in action with the, the full, the full setup, I've actually been behind the table, like we mentioned for an hour or two helping you out. What's it like now when you go to a pen show? What, what can customers, you know, existing customers and new customers expect when they roll up to the big orange banners? I mean, and I appreciate that orange too. That's a solid, solid orange choice there. What can they expect when they roll up to your tables at a pen show?

'''Dan Smith:''' Um, usually I'm going to have at least two or three tables. Um, most of it's going to be covered in pen trays. Um, when you come up, feel free to pick up and handle anything. Um, I want you to get the pen in your hand, get a feel for it, take a close look at it. Um, I'm going to have every nib available for almost every pen. It may not be out, but I will have it in the back. And then if you're interested in it, if you, I will have a tray of inked pens as well. So I'm always going to have all the sailor nibs inked up. I'll probably have all the lamby 2000 nibs inked up and then a variety of other stuff. And that's going to be down closer to me where I'm grinding nibs. Um, I'll have a pad of paper sitting out. Feel free to pick one up and just start writing. Um, and don't hesitate to ask questions, um, whether it's directly to me or to anyone helping behind the table. Um, they should be able to answer most of them. And if not, they'll, they'll grab me. Um, but really just, um, stop by the table, be comfortable. Don't hesitate to, to ask questions and pick things up.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Nice, nice. Love it. So now the real hard hitting questions, Dan, are you team all-star team Safari? I know you're a huge Lamy fan, right?

'''Dan Smith:''' I am.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yeah.

'''Dan Smith:''' Um, but I would say if it's going to be between.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' That sounded hard for you to say.

'''Dan Smith:''' If it's going to be between those two, I mean, just give me a pencil at that point.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Now that's the answer I expected from you. Okay. Well, we'll, we'll let you slide on that. We'll let you slide on that. I mean, we know it's Safari, but you know, whatever, but really, who has the better sailor collection right now between you and Jacqueline, who helps you out at pen shows?

'''Dan Smith:''' Um, well, considering the two pens I just got yesterday, I'm going to have to pick my collection.



== New Pen Purchases ==


'''Brad Dowdy:''' Hmm. Nice. So are these, are the, when are these pens going to be on Instagram and when can I see them?

'''Dan Smith:''' Uh, probably later today.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Nice. Oh, so they'll be up. They'll be there for people to see by the time this episode goes up.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' So yeah, yeah, exactly. So last one from Jacqueline before we got a lot more questions. Um, where is Iowa?

'''Dan Smith:''' Where is Iowa? That must be a failing of the Indiana school system.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Touche. Touche. She deserved that after these questions, right? Like, uh, come on, Jacqueline. That wasn't very nice, but a good answer. Good answer. All right.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Shub one over the years. What are the main changes you have seen in nib grinding preferences? Like, have you noticed since you started doing nib grinds to the current, uh, time, which has only been what, three to five years, maybe have you noticed a change in preference between for, for customers? Yeah.

'''Dan Smith:''' I think the architect has definitely become much more popular. I mean, when it first started out, I was doing lots of stubs, lots of cursive italics. Um, but I mean, now, like I mentioned earlier, the architect is easily a close number two there.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yeah. That, then that's, that still boggles my mind. So, have your customers' expectations changed over the years? Like, as far as, you know, using, getting, you know, their nib work done for you? Do you feel, are the customers more inquisitive, demanding, you know? Do they, or open? Like, what kind of customer experience changes have you noticed from the start until now?

'''Dan Smith:''' I don't know if I really have a good answer for this.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Um, I mean, your customers, they're coming to you for a highly specific service, right? So, right. And the only, the only end result is, like you said before, it's got to work. So, your transaction is going to be right no matter how we get there, right?

'''Dan Smith:''' Right. And, I mean, they do have high expectations of me as they should. And I need to be able to deliver that, um, on a consistent basis. So, yeah. I mean, I don't really think it's changed. Um, they may not quite know what to expect at, at first, but once that first transaction goes through, I mean, I want to set the bar high. Right. And I try to deliver that. And I think once I do, they just continue to expect that as they should.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' So, this is a interesting question for all of the at-home nib grinders who are, are taking this up from the inky side. While Dan is clearly a professional at the craft, I mean, they, I don't know that they know you very well. I'm just saying. What are his suggestions for us amateurs at home who might want to do basic smoothing or flow adjustment on our nibs? Like, do you have like a few tips for us amateurs at home who want to make minimal adjustments? Do you have tools? Do you have, you know, routines that you perform on certain products that aren't working well? What are kind of your tips and tricks for fixing basic nib issues? Yeah.

'''Dan Smith:''' Yeah. So, probably the most important tool is, is a loop. You've got to be able to see what's going on with the tip and you've got to be able to see what your adjustments are doing to it. Um, so that, and maybe a couple, um, smoothing cloths, you know, whether it's micro mesh or, um, the Mylar polishing films and really just find as much information online that you can and go slow. Um, little adjustments can make big changes to the nib itself. Um, I could kind of go through the instructions of it, but it's, it's hard if you can't actually see, you know, what, what I'm talking about. Um, but yeah, just, just always remember, go, go slow, take your time and be patient.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yeah. I mean, I think that's, that's for sure. Like I get scared just, I used to, and I'm a little like I'm over it now, but just getting out my little micro mesh and just doing the, the teeniest little buffing on a nib going, Oh my God, I'm going to ruin it. Like you really can't, unless you're just like super ham handed, aggressive, like going to town on it. So now I'm a little bit more carefree, but that stuff scares me. Like I, to be honest, like it's intimidating to do these little minor things yourself, but it big picture wise, you're going to be okay. Just kind of go for it. Take it slow. Yeah. So I'm going to modify this question from the inky side a little bit. Um, they ask, you know, what are the telltale signs that an amateur has misstepped or sprung or damaged a nib? And I'm going to take it down this path. Can you tell the difference between when I've dropped the nib or to when I got a little frisky with a nib and screwed it up?

'''Dan Smith:''' Oh yeah, for sure. Usually if, I mean, if a nib has been dropped, there's going to be a, you know, usually a weird kink or bend or, you know, something that's not going to happen by just someone, you know, either pressing too hard or, um, making, you know, too big of a, a grind or something like that on it. There's definitely going to be a sign of damage.

'''Myke Hurley:''' If you, if somebody comes to your table and they're like, Oh, this isn't working that well. And, uh, you can tell, do you keep it to yourself? Yeah.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Always the joke.

'''Dan Smith:''' Oh yeah. Okay. I guess I can see why it's not working. We can get this fixed up. No problem.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Something bad must've happened here.

'''Dan Smith:''' But, you know, sometimes a lot of people are really forthcoming. They'll say, you know, I tried to, to smooth it or I tried to do this or that. And then at that point I I'll help them understand, um, what they did incorrectly and how they can do it better next time if they want to continue trying it. Nice.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Nice. And then charge them double.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' No, just kidding. Just kidding. Is there a most challenging grind to achieve consistently? I think you mentioned the needle point, um, being maybe not to achieve the results consistently, but is there a specific grind that's just always hard no matter what?

'''Dan Smith:''' Um, for me right now it's, it's the Naginata Tagi grind just because of, uh, the geometry of it. And you've got to start with, you've got to have enough tipping there to get it to come out. Right. Um, it just, yeah, it's a little bit more challenging for me. It takes a little bit longer. Um, but everything else is, is pretty simple at this point.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Let's talk about that tipping just for a second, because we had a question earlier in the chat. Have you ever gotten asked to bring a broad nib down to an extra fine or needle tip? Oh yeah. And would you do it? Does it work? Can you do it or no?

'''Dan Smith:''' Oh yeah. I mean, it's not a problem. It's, it can change. I don't like to just because the aesthetics of the nib changes. I don't think it looks as good. So if, if I've got a nib that's closer to what they're looking for, I'll, I might swap the nib out and start with something closer to a fine or extra fine. Um, just because I think the end result looks better. The, the way the, the curves of the tines come down to, to meet the tipping. Um, but otherwise it's, it's no issue starting with a broad nib going to an extra finer needle point.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' So is there a general guideline that you have when someone's buying a new pen, knowing that they want to achieve X results? Say I want this to end up being like a fine cursive italic. Will you say, let's start with a fine nib. Should we go with a medium nib? So you have a little bit of room to play with. Do you have any kind of guidelines for those types of decisions?

'''Dan Smith:''' If they're looking for just say a fine or medium cursive italic or architect, I'll just start with that nib. Um, or if they have a specific width in mind, like say a 0.5 millimeter cursive italic, depending on what pen they want it on, I'll recommend something that's just a little bit wider and I can bring it down. Um, but usually if they have questions about it, I mean, they're always welcome to, you know, text me or email me and we can discuss it. Um, I don't, a lot of people will ask, should I just start with the widest nib to give you the most tipping material to work with? And that's really not the case. We don't need to do that. Especially if you're looking for, you know, an extra fine or fine cursive italic, I'll just start with that dip size.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Gotcha. Yeah, that makes sense. That's good stuff. All right. Last one. And we're going to get you out of here. This has been, this has been amazing. This is from Jeff star jr. Have a Pelican M805 with a medium nib that writes broader than a medium and too broad for me. Should I have it ground down to a nib size that works for me, a Western medium to find or try to swap it with someone? And here's the kicker. This is why I found this question interesting. I feel like grinding it down is destroying the beauty it was meant to be. What do you think about that thought process?

'''Dan Smith:''' I can definitely understand it.

'''Dan Smith:''' And there's something to say about keeping a nib in its factory form, I guess. And with something that's so easily available to swap to. So yeah, if that's an easy option, definitely, you know, go that way. Everything will still be under warranty. You know, you'll still, it'll come straight from the factory that way. Um, but otherwise I don't think it's, you know, that special of a nib that it can't be modified or ground down to a size that fits you. Right.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' And then the, the good thing here is it's Pelican, right? There's right. You can always get an easy swap for a nib. They make it super, super easy to do. And Dan, you make it super easy for us to get pens and nib grinds from as the nibsmith at different pen shows online. You're an awesome resource. You're a great friend. And I appreciate you spending these two episodes. You've been on live on the internet for like an entire week, just answering questions on this microphone. That's how long it took. Like, you know, you just, you were very patient after the first episode, you sat there and waited for like an entire week with your headphones on in front of the microphone. And then we got this second one in. So I really appreciate your time.

'''Myke Hurley:''' It's a lot of time.

'''Dan Smith:''' Hey, it's, it's no problem. I'm happy to do it for you guys.

'''Myke Hurley:''' We are now sad to announce that Dan has lost his job at the nibsmith last week. Full time. And now he's ruined. That's how long it took. He's just sat here for a week, just on Skype. That's, that's how long it takes. Yep.



== Live Events & Schedule ==


'''Brad Dowdy:''' All right. Before we get you out, tell us where you're going to be live and in person for the rest of the year.

'''Dan Smith:''' Let's see. I'll definitely be at St. Louis, DC, San Francisco, Colorado, and Ohio. Nice. And I want to try and get to Dallas. Still, still waiting on confirmation there. But that's the only one up in the air at the moment.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Awesome. That's a busy schedule. You're a busy man. Welcome to the new busyness. I love to see it. Thank you very much, guys.

'''Myke Hurley:''' But if, if you can't meet Dan at a pen show, you can always go to nibsmith.com and you can peruse his products and make orders there. Dan also has a really great Instagram account, actually, which is at the nibsmith posts beautiful pictures of wonderful people.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Follow at your own risk.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Yes. It's worth it, but it's expensive. Worth it. You can find Brad at penaddict.com and knock.co, twitch.tv slash penaddict. He's dowdyism on Twitter, penaddict on Instagram. I'm imikeimikeimike.com. I'm I-M-Y-K-E. Thanks again to the wonderful folk at Moo and Pen Chalet for their support of this episode. Thanks again to Dan for joining us. But most of all, thank you for listening. And we'll be back next time, probably without Dan Smith. But who knows what's going to happen. Maybe he just keeps the call open and he's just here again next time. We'll find out. Until then, say goodbye, everybody. Goodbye, everybody.

'''Dan Smith:''' Bye, everybody. Bye, everybody. Bye, everybody. Bye, everybody. Bye, everybody. Bye, everybody. Bye, everybody. Bye, everybody.

[[Category:Podcast Transcripts]]
[[Category:The Pen Addict Podcast Transcript]]