The Pen Addict 57/transcript

The Pen Addict Podcast Transcript
Episode:	57
Title:	There’s A Rectangular Hole
Release Date:	June 4th, 2013
Hosts:	Brad Dowdy Myke Hurley
Guests:	No guests this episode
Additional Information
Official page:	Episode 57
Audio File:	Audio Episode 57
Podcast page:	The Pen Addict 57
Length:	4949 min <br />0.817 h <br /> minutes
Previous Transcript	Next Transcript

Myke Hurley: Hello and welcome to episode 57 of The Pen Addict podcast on 5x5, a weekly show where we discuss pens, paper, and the analogue tools that we love so dearly. My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by a man who is sharper than a carpenter's pencil on a Monday morning, Mr. Brad Dowdy.

Brad Dowdy: Oh man, that's perfect. How you doing? Good, how are you?

Myke Hurley: Yeah, I'm very well, thank you.

Brad Dowdy: Good, I also thought it was kind of sexy how you said The Pen Addict podcast on 5x5.

Myke Hurley: I like to slip that in now. It's a standard thing that, you know, a bunch of, it's a thing, it's a brand. Yeah, it's a thing, it is. I like to say it, I'm proud of it too.

Brad Dowdy: I am too, I thought that was pretty cool. I was, I don't know, I don't know if you've done that before, but I was like, oh, that sounds really good.

Myke Hurley: It does, isn't it? We're happy.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, it does, it does. I've been happy with the 5x5 so far, so I'm sure you are too.

Myke Hurley: So, I'm going to mention again, right at the front of the show, if you want to find the links to anything that we talk about in today's show, if we say that's in the show notes, or if you want to find links to other stuff that we discuss in today's episode, you can find them at 5x5.tv slash penaddict slash 57. Very easy to come across.

New Topics

Brad Dowdy: Simple. All right, so we got a pretty good chunk of follow-up today, some things I wanted to talk about, some new things you got, and so I think let's get to it, huh?

Myke Hurley: I think that's a great idea.

Brad Dowdy: All right, so I don't normally, you know, directly link and discuss every review post I do on the blog, and you guys read the blog, you know what's out there, but sometimes I like to point out a few things and talk about a few that I did, especially when they're interesting items like the Tomoe is the proper pronunciation, Michael, Tomoe River Paper Review. I prefer Tomoe. People reach out to me.

Myke Hurley: You like Tomoe? Yeah, I think it sounds better.

Brad Dowdy: I know, just like Sino, Sino, Signo, all that stuff. But the Tomoe River Paper Review I did on the blog on Monday, I wanted to follow up with that because we had talked about it when we had Anna on a few episodes ago, I think that was 54, talking about some fountain pen-friendly paper, and I was really, I can't stop thinking about this paper because it's just really, a really neat paper, and, you know, I've got some pictures on the review. One of the things I'm realizing now that I didn't do in the review is really try to show how thin this paper is. It's like my pictures don't show like the transparent aspect of the paper. I'll see if I can do a follow-up and do some pictures. Just basically, like I mentioned in the review and we've talked about it before, it's like tracing paper. I did the review, my written review of the paper, the big image at the top of the article. I laid that piece of paper on top of one of my dome paper pads, like the full-size legal pad. That's how I was able to get my lines so straight. I mean, it's really that transparent where I can just see the lines underneath it, and you use just kind of, it's just kind of like a grid line to keep your line straight. So I want to do some more pictures of this to see if I can, I don't know, I guess paint a better picture of how thin this paper really is. But I'm not sure it would work well for you because it's a pretty wet paper. It'd be something worth trying just to see, you know, if you maybe liked it.

Brad Dowdy: No one's figured out the portability really yet of it. It's super, super fragile. Like I linked to a guy, Jesse Astin, who's binding some of the paper into some journals. But this is really kind of a letter writing paper right now until we can find some other uses for it. But I'm going to keep an eye out for other Tomoe options, like in the planners that I mentioned, the Hobonichi planners that I mentioned in the article. So I think you will be seeing a lot more about this paper on my blog because I'm pretty fascinated by it.

Myke Hurley: So I read your review today, actually. And I will never buy this paper.

Brad Dowdy: Right. I can imagine.

Myke Hurley: I can't imagine under any circumstance that this being usable for me, being a left-handed person, liking to write in fountain pens. I just can't see how I could ever use it, Brad. Like it just – it kind of just looks like you're writing on glass. You know, it just looks like – you didn't have any pictures. I was wondering if you were going to – I mean, and it might have just been worthless. But any ink drying?

Brad Dowdy: No, I didn't, but I did link to Aziza's article, and she had some dry time images, and it's pretty lengthy. I mean, I didn't bother just because it's pretty obvious. I mean, it's really long. Yeah, that was – And I mentioned – there's definitely a lot of downsides on this paper.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. Which I made sure to list. Like the dry time is really lengthy. You can't use the back side of the paper because it's really transparent.

Brad Dowdy: And it's really a non-portable paper. It's – most people that are using it right now are using it just for fountain pen testing and letter writing. So that's been kind of the use. But it's – I need to send – I keep saying I'm going to send you a care package. I'm going to include someone just so you can try it. I mean, I know – I don't think you – I would never recommend it for you. You know, it's not a daily use type of paper. Plus, it's very expensive.

Myke Hurley: But if you can get your hands on some, it's an experience, I guess.

Brad Dowdy: Yes, it's an experience. That's a good way to put it. It's an experience type paper. It's not something that, you know, I'd ever recommend to a college student, you know, to take to their class. I mean, that would be just horrible. But it's so different. It's worth having that experience if you think you might enjoy it even a little bit. So anyway, I thought that was – it was cool enough to bring it back up again now that I've got the review up. And I link to a bunch of other places where you can go read some more about it just because you'll be hearing about it from me again down the line. So I just wanted to mention that because it's pretty cool. I really like it a lot. But I'm not going to use it regularly. But it's fun to play around with.

Myke Hurley: I'm pleased that you did because it was an interesting follow-up to that discussion with Anna.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, I was actually – I need – I want to see how many sheets I have. I'd like to get her some too and get her opinion on it because I think she would probably like it. Although she is left-handed as well. I'm not sure how bad she drags her hand. And, you know, we still got to work on that episode. The next time we have her on, we've got to do the lefty-righty thing. So I just remembered about that.

Myke Hurley: I agree. I want to do that. That would be really, really fun for me actually. That would be a nice, interesting discussion that I think we've been wanting to have for a while.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, I think so.

Myke Hurley: So a little bit of follow-up from me from last week. So I ordered in the – well, I received in the Colt Pens order that I made with all of the refills. And I decided on my two favorites for the Render K. So these are Parker-style refills. I ended up going with the Schmidt 9000M Easy Flow Pen Refill. It was a ballpoint and the Schneider Express 735 refill in broad, which is a – what type of – is this also a ballpoint? Yeah, it's also a ballpoint, I believe. Yes, it is. Yes. So where ballpoints are not necessarily my type of refill, I much prefer rollerballs to ballpoints. But they felt really smooth and they were really consistent. And the lines that they gave were well – evenly distributed and they weren't skipping. So all in all, I was pretty happy with what I got from them. And I have yet been able to put them through their paces like in a big way just because I keep forgetting to take my Render Ks out of the beautiful pen holder that Mr. – that the dude made for us.

Brad Dowdy: That's right.

Myke Hurley: But yeah, I'm planning to do that. And every day I kick myself – and we'll talk about that again in a second – for forgetting to take the Render Ks out of the pen holder and take one to work. Because I don't want to leave it there. I want to bring them home. I know. These are not ones that I want to keep out because they're just like little pieces of art.

Brad Dowdy: That's right. I am anxious to see how those refills do for you.

Myke Hurley: So I will – yes. So especially for that reason, Brad, I will make sure that I get that done. Cool. Get a bit – but it might be within a couple of weeks' time. I'll follow up on that. One of – and sort of mentioning that. So I also received – and I mentioned this last week as well – my Twisby with the stub nib, the 1.1 stub nib, the Twisby Mini. Received that from Colt Pens 2.

Brad Dowdy: I'm excited for you.

Myke Hurley: And in the same vein, up until today, I have forgot to take – Oh, no. So my usage of it so far has been minimal. I've been playing around with it a lot at home, just writing in my field notes, one of my field notes books, which the back of this field notes books is just loads of pen names and me writing hello over and over again because that's what I do when I'm testing out a pen. Okay. I tend to write the word hello. I think a lot of people probably do this. Then I write the pen name or the refill name. Okay. It's just because it's the first thing that always will jump into my head. Yeah.

Brad Dowdy: I write the pen name usually, and then I usually – I write my name a lot. I think that's a theory. Like a lot of people, when you first hand them the pen – I've read an article somewhere. I should have saved it. If you hand someone a pen, say, here, test this pen, what's the first thing that they're going to write? And a lot of time, it's their name. It was like a very, very high percentage of what it would be. So, yeah. I don't think hello was on the radar.

Myke Hurley: I write hello a lot. Okay. That's good. Oh, I do actually write my name too. I'm flicking through this now, and I sign as well. But hello there. Hello there. Over and over and over again throughout this book.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. I write the pen and ink and nib size and, like, the pen specs. And then I write – yeah, my name seems to be the main thing. Then just kind of do some doodles. So let's hear your thoughts on the pen. I'm anxious. I'm waiting with bated breath.

TWSBI Mini

Myke Hurley: So let me talk about the design of the Twizbee Mini. Because aside from it just being my first stub nib, it's also – I don't have a Mini. I love it. I love it. It's great. Like, it's much smaller than I imagined it to be, but not so small that I can't use it without the cap posted.

Myke Hurley: So it fits in my hand. I think it's a little bit larger than a Kaweco. Yes. So it's comfortable to hold. But the weight of the cap is also actually – I don't know what they've done because it's typically not something that I would do. But I have used it with the cap screwed on to the end. So post it.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, that's generally – I think I use mine most of the time with the cap posted because it does – they did allow for posting by adding threads to the end of the pen. So it posts securely. And, you know, with the Mini pen, actually posting is important just to get the right feel and balance for the pen when you're writing. But although, like you said, it is possible to use this mini because it's not too, too small unposted.

Myke Hurley: Exactly. But as you know, like, even for smaller pens, it's weird for me to post. And I did it this time, so I've been happy with it. So I don't think I was adequately prepared for the stub nib. Like, I feel like I knew what was going to happen, but when it happened, it surprised me.

Myke Hurley: Just the way that it writes is so different.

Brad Dowdy: It's very different.

Myke Hurley: And I think that I like it.

Myke Hurley: I'm not like – I'm not blown away. I'm like, whoa, this is totally different. But I'm also not like, oh, my God, I wouldn't want to use this. Right. So I don't really know what I was expecting. Like, you know, either way, I was just sort of excited to try it. I knew that it would be fun, which it is. But it's really interesting. And I keep finding myself drawing strange shapes because you can get, like, different line thickness. So I'm, like, playing around with, like, do I hold it like this? What sort of line does it draw? If I hold it like this, what sort of line does it draw? So I've been doing a lot of that because this is so interesting. So, I mean, I feel like we've discussed stub nibs before. So a stub nib is where it's more like a calligraphy pen. And instead of on a fountain pen where it meets, like, a point at the end, it's flattened off. It's, like, sawn off at the end, right? That's probably a layman's way of describing it.

Brad Dowdy: Right, right. Yeah, it's like a squared-off nib.

Nib Angle

Myke Hurley: So what it does is it lays two different types of lines depending on how you hold the pen. You know, if you have it at an angle, it will draw a very thin line as you're just sort of using the top. But if you hold it at a different angle, so, like, the line that you draw is parallel with the – I don't know if parallel is the right word – but with the flatness at the top of the nib, it will draw a much thicker line.

Myke Hurley: And, yeah, I feel like – this is what I was kind of leading to before. I feel like I need to use it more. But I'm happy to use it more. I'm excited to use it more. Because it's a great pen. And it's a new, interesting path for me. So I plan to try and get some more use out of this.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, I think what I'd like to see from you and what I'm having difficulty as a right-hander wrapping my head around. So, like, when I use a stub nib as a right-hander and with just a normal traditional grip, if I'm, you know, aiming the nib towards the paper, that nib is probably at a 45-degree angle. Does that make sense?

Myke Hurley: Yeah.

Brad Dowdy: To the page. So I feel like I'm in the proper writing position for a stub nib. Now, being a lefty, there's some give and take with the writing angle. You know, more of a – we've talked about it, and you'll have to remind me. I don't think you're a huge, like, overwriter. Right? I mean, you have somewhat of a traditional writing style.

Myke Hurley: No, no.

Brad Dowdy: I'm just wondering how the nib is pointed at the paper when you're writing.

Myke Hurley: I think you're mixing me up with Anna, I think. Okay. Because I am – my hand goes over the top of the page, you know?

Brad Dowdy: Okay. So you, like, have a hook.

Myke Hurley: Yeah. Okay. The way that I write with the stub nib, the nib is facing me. Right. And the flat part of the stub, so the wide part, is parallel with the bottom of the page of the paper.

Brad Dowdy: Okay.

Myke Hurley: Does that make sense? Yes. So basically hold the pen in such a way that the nib is pointing towards you, and you are looking down at the face of the nib.

Brad Dowdy: Right. Okay. I got it.

Myke Hurley: So that's how I'm using it. And people at home with their fountain pens can follow along. So that you can imagine, then, that I am writing with this with the line at its thickest.

Brad Dowdy: Okay. Yep. Okay. So you're, like, the pen's pointing at, like, 12 o'clock, the barrel of the pen. Exactly. The butt end of the pen.

Myke Hurley: Yep.

Brad Dowdy: So whether the butt end of my pen is pointing at, like, 4 o'clock. Okay. Okay. So just to give everyone a visual. Because that's the challenge I'm having. Because I have my 580 stub right now. And I'm having – that's why I don't know if the stub nib is great for lefties or not. Because it's a different movement. And I don't know how well that translates into that different of a grip. But, I mean, I think it's definitely doable. I think you just got to manage what – how to use it and just, you know, use it more, have more practice with it kind of thing.

Myke Hurley: So I just, obviously, to reverse it, I just held the pen with it aiming at, like, I don't know, 8, 8 o'clock. So uncomfortable. Yeah. For me.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. Yeah.

Myke Hurley: So, yeah. Yeah.

Brad Dowdy: I imagine that'd be tough.

Myke Hurley: So that's an insight into the way I write, too. And now I hold pen. I wasn't necessarily expecting to go down that line.

Brad Dowdy: Hey, that's why the show is – that's why the show is good. We get into that minutia that you would think no one cares about. Then we'll get five of you emails going, oh, my God, I do the same thing. I can't believe you talked about that.

ArtSnacks

Myke Hurley: So you remember a couple of weeks ago we had a new sponsor called ArtSnacks. I do. They're not sponsoring again today, but I did mention that I signed up and I have received my first box of supplies from them.

Brad Dowdy: Oh, cool.

Myke Hurley: I want to make it very, very clear that they have not asked for this and I'm not doing it because they are a sponsor. Because they were a sponsor. It's because yesterday I received a few new drawing items, every single one of them, nothing I would have personally bought, but all cool stuff. So I'm going to put a link in the show notes which will take you to their products page. And you will want to look for June 2013 because it has the links to all of the items discussed. I would expect that anybody that did sign up, and I hope that many of you did sign up because it's pretty cool and, you know, to support the show.

Myke Hurley: I'm assuming because I'm in the UK I'm probably one of the last to get them, so this might not be a spoiler for people. But what, so I'll give you a quick rundown of the items I received. So I have the Zig Memory System Brushables Marker. So it's like a marker pen with a brush on one end, and it's like it's got two caps. And on the, like, so it's two different types of brush pen, like, on each. But they've got slightly different pigmented inks. It's quite interesting. They've got good descriptions. So one tip is a true color pigment, and while the other tip is a pigment tint. So it's the same color but slightly different tints, which is quite cool. And I've got that in blue. So that's very different. What else have I got? I've got a Pantone Universe Twin Marker. So this is like a marker slash highlighter in a Pantone color. And I got orange, which is awesome. Oh, that's cool. I got Pantone 151263. So it's two different – so one is sort of a brush highlighter marker, and the other is more of a traditional felt tip. So I kind of like that. That's pretty cool, especially in orange. So it's a really nice – I've got a couple of really nice sort of marker-type pens there, which is always good to have, actually. Something I didn't know existed is a Faber-Castell Perfection Eraser. It's a pencil eraser. So it's a pencil, and instead of a nib, it has an eraser in the core.

Brad Dowdy: So like you sharpen it? So, yeah, you sharpen it.

Myke Hurley: Yep. In a traditional pencil sharpener, you sharpen it, and it allows you to get very precision erasing.

Brad Dowdy: Now that's pretty cool.

Myke Hurley: I thought that was kind of interesting.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, I hadn't seen that before either.

Carpenter Pencil

Myke Hurley: And I received a Forest Choice Carpenter Pencil. It's my first carpenter pencil, hence the carpenter pencil reference. Oh, great. And a pencil sharpener that will allow me to sharpen the carpenter's pencil.

Brad Dowdy: Oh, that's cool. That's really good.

Myke Hurley: So, obviously, it sharpens it kind of strangely, because you can imagine, like, it's hard to explain, but it's not really a point at the end. Right. It's kind of flat. But I guess you could kind of then use the pencil sharpener to kind of sharpen that out, like if you pull it up a little bit more. You can use some pencil sharpener through, you know, like you would in school to make a really sharp pencil point. But this is kind of cool, because it's a universal sharpener. So it has, like, a circular hole and then, like, a rectangular hole. So you can put in all types of pencils and sharpen them.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, so they got, so they made it so you can sharpen your eraser pencil and your carpenter pencil and give you the pencil sharpener to do it. That's well thought out.

Myke Hurley: I thought that, too, because if I would have received a carpenter's pencil, I'd have been like, what do I do with this now? I'd have to get a knife out to sharpen this thing.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, well, that's what a real man would do. But, I mean, we're not. I'm not a real man.

Myke Hurley: I drink girly drinks, after all.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, that's clear.

Myke Hurley: So that's all the stuff from ArtSnacks. I was very happy with it, actually. I've got a cool ArtSnacks sticker, too, and they put in a bubble gum, double bubble bubble gum, too, which is kind of cool. And I'm really looking forward to it, actually, because what it's doing for me, I guess, is opening up the types of things that I receive. It's not very expensive. And I've got some cool stuff here that I really like all of it and actually think I would use all of it, especially the highlighters. Because, you know, I do a lot of highlighting for work. And this is a couple of really cool ways to do it. And I don't think that the brushables pen is necessarily a highlighter, but I would use it as such. Right. And I'm really happy. And I'm in no hurry to change my subscription. I'm looking forward to the next box.

Brad Dowdy: Very cool. I thought that's some interesting products because, I mean, there's not a single thing there that I have. I mean, I have a carpenter pencil, but, I mean, I don't have, you know, the other products you have, including the sharpener, has, I don't know, kind of got my interest piqued. That was a good product mix.

Myke Hurley: Yeah, I think so. That's what's cool about it. One last thing. I have some terrible news.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, I saw you add this in at the last minute. And this is in all caps. And I was like, uh-oh, this isn't going to be good.

Customs Charges

Myke Hurley: Okay, this is it.

Myke Hurley: There's a letter from Parcel Force.

Myke Hurley: We have a charge of £23.35.

Myke Hurley: Customs. Again. I can only assume that that is, of course, for the retro pens that I'm waiting for, including the surf. So that is another $35.

Myke Hurley: Goodness gracious. Alive.

Myke Hurley: I'm so annoyed. I'm really annoyed by it. That's horrible. I already had to pay $20 in customs charges for the T-shirts, my 70 decibels T-shirts. And then I received the next day that. It's just the cost, the additional cost that I've had to pay for this pen. Like, I've effectively doubled the cost of the Retro 51 Surf Edition. Wow. I mean, that's before shipping. So all in all, this has cost me like nearly $150. Oh my gosh.

Brad Dowdy: That's horrible. I mean, I feel really bad for you because that's brutal. I mean, that's really, that's a real negative to making you want to make purchases like that. That's a huge downside.

Myke Hurley: I never would have bought it from, I mean, Art Brown's great and I've used them before, but I wouldn't have bought it from them. But Retro 51 had such a limited stock that they actually said they didn't send any to their UK distributors. Okay. So I wouldn't have got it.

Myke Hurley: You know, I probably still would have done it anyway, but it's just so expensive. It's such a frustration. It really is and it's why I'm starting to use more UK-based people for more expensive orders because it's, I'm paying more, but at least I know what I'm paying up front rather than, you know, thinking I'm getting a good deal, but it actually turns out that I'm not. It's just a real shame. It's just a shame and it's kind of frustrating because it's going to mean, I mean, I'm about to go on holiday. So I don't want to spend that money right now, you know, because that's, I don't know, a dinner or whatever. Sure. So it's probably going to be a few weeks before I get it, before I get the Retro 51. So they'll hold it in customs for 20 days. So, you know, I might arrange it just after I get back. Wow. It's just really annoyed me.

Brad Dowdy: I know. That's really extreme at this point.

Myke Hurley: Because basically to any new listeners of the show, I ordered a pen called the Pilot Vanishing Point.

Myke Hurley: And they, and it was like a hundred dollar pen or whatever. I think that was how much I paid for it. By the time I'd factored in shipping and then a customs charge, I doubled the value, the price I paid for the pen.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, that's brutal.

Myke Hurley: Dear, oh dear.

Brad Dowdy: I know.

Myke Hurley: Episode 14, Vanished in Customs. So I'll put a link to that in the show notes in case people want to go back and hear more about my rage at the customs office.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, that was a frustrating experience because, I mean, that, I remember that because we talked about it for a couple episodes before you were even able to spring it.

Myke Hurley: Yep.

Brad Dowdy: Oh, that's brutal. I can't imagine.

Myke Hurley: Oh no, that was actually, episode 14 was when I actually received it from customs.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah.

Myke Hurley: That's what I'm saying.

Brad Dowdy: I think I'm pretty sure we had talked about it like the week before, if not the two weeks before saying, you know, talking about the challenges with that.

Myke Hurley: Yep. So I'll actually put episode 13 into the show notes so people can hear about my fury. Because you've actually written because it is still stuck in customs in capital letters in the show description showing how angry I must have been.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah.

Myke Hurley: Anyway, shall we talk about our sponsor and then move into, believe it or not, a topic?

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Myke Hurley: We haven't had a topic for weeks.

Brad Dowdy: I know. I've been holding this one out and Myke who sent in the topic is probably, oh, when are they going to get my answer?

Myke Hurley: When it's going to be.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. We'll talk about it because this is a good topic. Lots of people have been asking about this. So yeah. Why don't you go ahead?

Myke Hurley: So I'd like to take a quick moment to thank our fantastic sponsors over at squarespace.com who give you everything that you need to make an amazing website. Squarespace is a fully hosted, completely managed environment for creating and maintaining a beautiful website, blog or portfolio. I'm going to quickly tell you about some of the fantastic things that you get from Squarespace. You get beautiful themes. They're really clean. They let your content do all of the talking and they look fantastic on any device as they automatically restructure with responsive web design to maintain all of the beauty of your template. And any of the customizations you make to your pages through building them with their page building system called layout engine, which allows you to create custom layouts for each of your pages in seconds. It's everything is totally taken care of in regards to hosting. You never have to worry about if people are linking to your blog or anything. It doesn't matter how much traffic is coming through. It's always going to be up, always going to be fast because Squarespace look after all of that for you. They have great real time analytics. If you want to sell things, they have Squarespace commerce, which allows you to sell physical or digital goods in your existing Squarespace site. They have blog importers, 24 seven customer support. What I really want to tell you about today is if you want to see a couple of sites that built on Squarespace look totally different. You've got Brad's blog, penaddict.com and mine, mikehurley.net. There are two sites that are built on Squarespace, on Squarespace six. They are 100% different. They're using totally different themes. They have, in my opinion, really nice, clean designs. They look great on phones. They look great on computers, great on tablets. They have great fonts, great colors, and this is all built in. Everything that you see, me and Brad have built from point A to point Z using Squarespace's inbuilt tools. I haven't customized anything. You have not customized anything, have you, Brad?

Brad Dowdy: Nope, not at all.

Myke Hurley: Because you can go in under the hood and if you know this sort of stuff, make some tweaks and stuff to what you see. But me and Brad have both created all of our tools with Squarespace's great, fantastic. So we've created our sites with their fantastic tools. So go take a look at those and I'm sure that you're going to agree that you need to go and sign up for Squarespace. And you don't have to sign up and pay them straight away because you can get a free trial. Just go to squarespace.com forward slash 70 decibels. That's 70-D-E-C-I-B-E-L-S. You can start a free trial and find out more. Squarespace plans start at $10 a month. And if you use the code 70decibels6, that's 70-D-E-C-I-B-E-L-S-6, you will get 10% off your first order over at squarespace.com. We give you everything you need to make an amazing website. Thank you to Squarespace for their support of The Pen Addict and of 5x5.

Myke Hurley: Great. So what have we got, buddy?

Nib Sizes

Brad Dowdy: We have got a topic about nib and tip sizes on pens. So let me read this email from Myke. And he's basically got a couple of questions. And then I have some points to elaborate on. So let me read this out real quick. It says, can you give your thoughts on nib tip thickness? The current trend seems to be ultra-thin lines. I can think of three reasons. Practical concerns such as bleeding, fine detail, creation, etc. Secondly, aesthetic preference, independent of those practical concerns. And three, bragging rights like, look at what this pen can do. What's your take? What thicknesses are better suited to which paper's tasks? Or is it all style and flair? Thanks.

Brad Dowdy: So in those few sentences, this is about three episodes worth of topic. Sure. That's why we've been pushing this off so long because I think it'll take a long time. And actually, you know, we could even do a part one now and then a part two, you know, in another episode or the next episode or something like that. But so he wants some general thoughts around the current trend seem to be ultra-thin lines. I think it's popular. The ultra-thin lines have become popular because there was a real lack of options in the U.S. market for lines like that. So you see everyone talking about that because all of a sudden there's these options that are available around the world that are now becoming available in the U.S. And so it's a new product to a lot of people where in the past they've only been stuck with a 1.0 millimeter ballpoint and it was a miracle if they could find a 0.7 ballpoint. Or a gel pen, you know, if you wanted something really fine, you could get a 0.5 millimeter ballpoint. Well, now you're starting to be able to get 0.38s pretty regularly and things like that. So it's kind of some newness to that trend. And a lot of people like that writing style. But, I mean, of course, the market for the larger tip sizes will never go away.

Myke Hurley: Because of people like me.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. No, I mean, yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's, you know, I say it all the time. That's why there's more than one pen, right? I mean, because we all have different needs and enjoyment that we're looking for in the tools that we write with. And so, I mean, I guess it is a trend, but it only became that way because now people's eyes have been opened a little bit. To where, you know, they realize that there's other things on the market that might suit their needs better. So, you know, there's just been kind of a renaissance around those micro tip sizes. And they do have some of the practical concerns, like you were talking about, Myke, the emailer. The fine detail creation, you know. A lot of artists and designers and engineers have used these fine pens, you know, for years and years and years. And that's why when a product like the pen type A came about because these people were designers. They enjoyed the Pilot Hi-Tech C line, which you could get all the way down to a 0.25 millimeter gel ink pen. They're using these in their design work, but they weren't happy with the pen barrel that it came in because it felt kind of cheap and uncomfortable. So that's why a project like the pen type A on Kickstarter became so successful because it was a designer creating a pen or around another pen that designers used. So that kind of thing. Aesthetics is why I like it, which was one of the other points in the email. You know, I like writing small and, you know, for years, I would try to find the finest 0.5 millimeter gel ink pen that I could write with. And when I found one that I felt was smaller than the other, I would kind of hoard them and that's the ones I would use. Now, I have all these options out there and that's why I like it. I think my handwriting is more aesthetically pleasing on the page. The smaller I write, at least that works for me. You know, it's not something, it's not a situation where I'm having to give my work to someone else written. It would probably, I'd probably get told to write larger or do something different. But for me, it's about the aesthetics. Bragging rights. I mean, that's maybe a little bit, but I don't think that's really pushing anything because most of us pen people are introverts anyway, where it's not like we're running through the streets waving our pens in the air saying, look at what this pen can do. So, I don't think it's much bragging rights. You know, we really don't have anyone to brag about our pens for unless it's online or something like that. You know, there's maybe a little bit of that, but I don't think it's really that third topic. I really think, you know, either the practicality of it or the aesthetics of it or why people choose the different nib and tip thicknesses that they use. As far as what's better suited to which papers and tasks, that's totally personal preference. Those are really impossible questions to answer because everyone's going to have different needs and different things. You know, one thing that's going to work for Myke Hurley is not going to work for Brad Dowdy and vice versa. So, I mean, those are questions that I really get in emails saying, all right, here is how I use pens and paper. This is what my needs are and what would be a good pen to fit those needs. Those are the kind of general things you need to be able to answer a question like that. So, that's way too broad of a question to give a really good answer to. And, you know, he follows up, is it all style and flair? I mean, I think that's, you know, kind of the same thing. It's just kind of more relevant to the individual situation. So, that's a really good email and I have a bunch more to talk about on this. But did you have any comments on what I've said so far?

Myke Hurley: No, it's kind of, you know, you're kind of following along with what I was saying. That's what I was thinking, you know, in that it's, for all of us, I think it's, you know, you're saying that you feel that you write better. You know, your handwriting looks nicer. It's like a neatness thing. For me, it's more just I choose my nib size, whatever I think is the most comfortable feeling, best performing pen. Typically, for me, that has been larger nib sizes just because the smoothness is a big thing for me. So, I'm happy to use a thin, like, you know, a thinner nib if the smoothness remains. And that's sort of what I found with the Twisbees.

Brad Dowdy: Right.

Myke Hurley: Because, you know, things like the high-tech C I don't enjoy because it feels too scratchy for me. Absolutely. Where others say the exact opposite.

Brad Dowdy: Right, right. So, let's get into a few of these points I wanted to expand on. And we might, depending on how this is going and how rambly I get, we might save some of them for the next episode. Is that okay about you?

Myke Hurley: Yes, that's fine.

Brad Dowdy: I think I could really get off kilter here because I have a lot to say. Okay. Just to help people understand why this question keeps coming up because there are so many differences. And so, we'll just kind of start with the basics real quick that most people are familiar with. And that's ballpoint pens, rollerball pens, and gel pens. So, let's talk about some of the differences in tip sizes in those guys and why, you know, a 0.5 millimeter ballpoint is going to be different than a 0.5 millimeter rollerball and a 0.5 millimeter gel. So, the first thing you have to realize is that the measurement of tip size is different than the measurement of line width on the paper. So, that's one thing that a lot of people new to pens kind of get confused about. That it doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to have, if you buy a 0.5 millimeter pen, that's not necessarily the line that's going to be down on the page. If you buy a 0.5 millimeter ballpoint, because of the way ballpoint ink is formulated, you're going to get an extraordinarily fine line on the page. The line width of a 0.5 millimeter ballpoint will be probably 0.3 to 0.4 millimeters. A 0.5 millimeter gel is going to be probably the most accurate to the actual measurement of the tip size. It'll be close to a 0.5 millimeter because of the properties of the ink. The gel is more, the ink's not going to spread. It's more true size, true writing ink. And then a 0.5 millimeter rollerball will be much wider than the size listed on the tip because of the liquid ink properties of that pen generally spreads more on the page. It soaks into the page. It makes your lines look wider. So a 0.5 millimeter across these three types of pens is going to give you three wildly varying line widths. And that's why you don't see ballpoint pens on the store shelf at 0.7 millimeters. Very, very rarely because that line is finer than what most people would consider what they're looking for in a ballpoint pen. And ballpoint pens, that's why you see 1.0 millimeter on the shelf a lot for ballpoint pens because it really writes about the line width of a 0.7 millimeter gel pen. So that's what a lot of people get confused about as far as those types of differences. Did that make sense how I was explaining it? I'm not sure if I found it was clear.

Myke Hurley: It is confusing, but that did make sense.

Brad Dowdy: Okay. It's extraordinarily confusing. I get emails about this a lot and why things are marked one way and look a different way. You really have to take in the ink properties, make a difference on what the line width looks like. One of the pens recently that fascinated me that came out about a month ago was the 0.38 millimeter uniball jet stream, which is a ballpoint.

Brad Dowdy: Since 0.38 has been around in gel pens for years now, and we've all used them or tried them or a lot of us have and use that as a regular everyday rider, when you see a 0.38 ballpoint, it is so different than anything you've ever seen in a 0.38 gel. It's hard to even explain. I mean, it writes about a 0.2 millimeter line. I mean, I don't have anything to measure the actual line with. I'm just doing it off of just looking at it and just experience what these other lines look like. That's a pen I would rarely recommend to people, but for me, it was kind of an awesome pen because it really stretched the boundaries of what the line width on the page do. And really, I didn't think it was anything we'd ever see. I didn't think there was a need for a 0.38 millimeter ballpoint, but it's turned out to be one of the coolest and most fun pens I use on a regular basis.

Myke Hurley: It just sounds so insane to me. It is. I mean, it really is. That sounds like I would never, ever want to use that. I can't imagine ever wanting to use something that would produce such an incredibly needlepoint line.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, and it's really a lot. It's really got to fit your writing style, too. You know, if you're a script or cursive writer, something like that's probably not going to do very well. It's not going to keep up with the pace of your writing. But if you're a, you know, you use a print style, it might work for you. But, yeah, that's, you know, there's a difference between pens that I love and pens that I would recommend people to use. That's a pen I love. I would probably never recommend it to anyone unless they came to me with an email that was so specific and that really fit that specific need. What I recommend to people is the 0.7 Jetstream because that gives a really wonderful, wonderful line that's not as bold as what's normally available. Another confusing point is drawing pens, which I use a lot.

Brad Dowdy: And this covers, like, anything from a Sharpie pen, you know, all your felt tip, plastic tip pens, Sharpie pens, secure pigment microns, Copic multiliners, you know, everything. Any fine liner type or art drawing pen, what they've done is it seems like where you're looking at companies that make ballpoints, rollerballs, and gel ink sizes, they all use the physical measurement of the tip, 0.38 millimeter. But the drawing pen size, some will use, like, the millimeter measurement. Some will just give it a number, like in Secura, we'll say, 0.3. The pen size will be 0.3. Then you look on the barrel and it says 0.35 millimeter tip.

Myke Hurley: So, so, so I have a Pigma Micro here, which is an 0.5 and it has a 0.5 millimeter line width. Okay. And I have a Oto graphic liner, which doesn't tell me.

Brad Dowdy: It's on the cap on the orange.

Myke Hurley: Oh, it just says 0.5.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, it says 0.5. Yeah, so it doesn't translate, but, and I don't have the chart in front of me, but there's actually a chart that you have to use for the Oto so you know. I think that's a point, that's close to a 0.7 or 0.8 millimeter line. It's very, it's wide, right?

Myke Hurley: Like that's, I wish that they could just standardize. Like, I think that it would, it would serve the pen industry better to try and standardize, one, what you're measuring and, and two, just displaying that clearly. Like, if you're measuring line width or if we're going to measure the size of the nib and then just making sure that's consistent across everyone, I think it would just be useful.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, I mean, and I think they have to measure the size of the nib because the line width would vary depending on the paper, so that wouldn't be a standardized measurement.

Brad Dowdy: Right, if I, if I take a roller ball, 0.5 roller ball and use it on copier paper, my line is going to be wider than if I used it on rodeo paper.

Myke Hurley: True.

Paper Types

Brad Dowdy: So that's a whole nother, that's a whole nother topic, you know, paper is a consideration. And when you're talking about line width, so what they're, what they have standardized is we're going to measure the size of the tip, at least in the metal tip pins, like ballpoints, roller balls, and gels. Those are all metal tip pins, plastic tip pins. They've taken it to a confusing, a more confusing level, I think. Anna, when I was talking about it, I think on Twitter or something, Anna called it pin vanity sizing, like, you know, in clothing, you know, how they'll adjust, different companies will have different sizes, you know, like a size, you know, 36, you know, men's pant, or men's clothes is probably more consistent than women's clothes, but, you know, one size at one company is, could be greatly different than another size at another company, it's just like vanity sizing.

Myke Hurley: That's a really good comparison to make, I think.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, that's why I wrote that down, because I thought that was spot on, because a company like, a company like Stabilo is the worst on, you can't trust any measurement they give you on any pin that I've been able to find. No, it's, it's bad. I mean, they make these, they make these claims like, you know, the super fine micro tip, you know, every, every marketing word to give you this ultra fine tip in a pin. And then it writes a line like a point seven millimeter rollerball. It's, it's kind of a joke. I've always had a, if you go look at Stabilo reviews on my blog, you can see it's a consistent problem with every pin I've ever reviewed from them.

Brad Dowdy: Especially with, with rollerballs and gels and ballpoints. So, so I think, I think that's probably a good stopping point for today, because I want to get into, we need to cover fountain pens. And that's, that's a whole nother huge topic that we need to elaborate on, and we could go another 20, 30 minutes just on that. So I think we're probably, unless you have any other comments on this, I think let's save, you know, fountain pen nibs. Because I've actually talked about that more than I have the, the ball, ballpoint rollerball gel ink tip sizes. And we can, we can circle back around maybe in the next episode or down the line, we'll talk about the fountain pen nib sizes. And, because I have a few comments I need to make on that, that I, I continue getting emails on. So just some more clarifications around that. Does that sound good?

Myke Hurley: Sounds perfect to me. All right. So you can catch up with us on social networks. I am imike, I-M-Y-K-E on app.net and Twitter. Brad is dowdy, D-O-W-D-Y on app.net and dowdyism, D-O-W-D-Y-I-S-M on Twitter. Brad also has a fantastic blog that you should be reading if for some insane reason you're not. And that is over at penaddict.com. Thank you very much for listening to episode 57 of the Pen Addict podcast. Until next time, bye-bye.

Brad Dowdy: Bye-bye. Bye-bye.