The Pen Addict 457/transcript
| The Pen Addict Podcast Transcript | |
|---|---|
| Episode: | 457 |
| Title: | A Literal Banana |
| Release Date: | April 14th, 2021 |
| Hosts: | Brad Dowdy |
| Guests: | No guests this episode |
| Additional Information | |
| Official page: | Episode 457 |
| Audio File: | Audio Episode 457 |
| Podcast page: | The Pen Addict 457 |
| Length: | 6464 min <br />1.067 h <br /> minutes |
| Previous Transcript | Next Transcript |
Myke: From RelayFM, this is The Pen Addict, episode 457 of today's show is brought to you by Kenro Industries and Squarespace. My name is Myke Hurley, and I am joined by Brad Dowdy. Hi Brad Dowdy.
Brad: I'm having a giggle fit. Okay. Because I'm trying to calm down, and that's just making me laugh. For literally no reason.
Myke: Brad's on a bit of a hyper one today.
Brad: For no reason. Like, a lot of times I have a reason, right? Oh, yeah, I want to talk about this, or oh, I just did this, you know, something in my life, or whatever. No reason today. No reason. Whatsoever. Except talking to you, that must be it, and having all these wonderful listeners. Maybe you're just too excited for tomorrow. Oh my gosh. Hang on a second, hang on.
Myke: Okay. There it is. There it is.
Myke: Long-time listeners will know that every year, we do a bunch of membership specials. If you're a RelayFM member, no matter what show you support, or whether you decide to support, or shows whatever type of membership you have, we have some bonuses that we do every year. And for the last, I think, three years, we have built a Lego set together, and we do it in a slightly peculiar way, where one of us has the set, and the other one has the instructions. Now, as Kate has just mentioned in the RelayFM members Discord, which is something that you also get as a member, if you go to Relay.fm slash membership, you can find out more about all the benefits that you may get. Kate is saying, is it that time of year? Well, yes and no. So typically, we have done these specials in August every year. Well, from 2021, we are changing that, and we're doing these specials in May. We haven't actually officially announced that yet. So Pan Addict listeners are ahead of the curve, because we're recording ours tomorrow. We have a lot of things that go on in the summer, and it seemed like a good idea for us to not also have these going on at the same time.
Brad: Yeah, it was a proper shift.
Membership Specials
Myke: Yeah, so we're moving all of the bonuses for kind of May time. And as Kate has pointed out, over the last two years, and this year as well, we've raised money for St. Jude in September, and we do a big event called the Podcast-a-thon, which takes a lot of planning. And me and Stephen have realized that it would be much easier for us and everybody else involved if we weren't also, during that exact same period of time, working on our member specials. So we're recording it tomorrow, and it will be coming out in May. The exact date will be communicated a little sooner than the time. But this is also, why are we doing it in April? Well, because Myke has a bunch of these to do, and he wants to space his time out nice and effectively before everything else starts to go haywire.
Brad: Yep, and this will be haywire on our own. We're good enough at haywire without having scheduled haywire. We can manage that on our own.
Myke: Yeah, and we planned a little bit better this year in the sense of I didn't just buy whatever set I was interested in and realized it was two to three times the size in pieces, and we have a much more manageable LEGO set. And we will share details about which one and all that kind of stuff a little further on in the future.
Brad: Yep. I'm looking forward to it.
Myke: The Retro51 Instagram account is calling us out a little bit. Excuse me?
Brad: Calling who?
Myke: Us. Out. Okay. So they posted a great little post. So listen in to the pen addict and I, Myke, and we realized that there's still some confusion about tornado poppers. So here is the official definition. So they have shared the retrocabulary definition of tornado popper. A limited edition tornado designed and produced by Retro51 and sold to multiple participating authorized retro dealers. These unique pen designs get their name from how they pop into stores and then pop out. The designs reflect the latest trends, retro fun, and or latest production techniques to produce a one-of-a-kind design.
Brad: So number one, they created an entire graphic just to answer this question. Fair play, I will say to them. I like it. Number two, I read this and I'm like, I have no idea what you're talking about. And like, I'm gonna, I'm angry because I'm so confused. And then I read it again and I was like, oh, I completely get it.
Myke: And this is very similar to me, actually. My initial read on this was BS, right? Like you are creating retroactive continuity here. And then I looked over again and I went through their website and stuff. And they do not call the standard in stock ones poppers. They don't do that. And then I was like, oh, okay. They only refer to poppers when it is a limited edition.
Brad: Outside of retro limited edition.
Myke: Yeah. And I don't think this is still the best name. But I appreciate the explanation. I now see why they do it. I still think there is a better name than poppers. Because I still think that poppers indicates a knock mechanism, not a twist mechanism.
Myke: So, you know, I think that they could maybe come up with a different name there. But I appreciate the explanation. I now understand what a Tornado Popper is. That was the thing we also didn't understand. What is a Tornado Popper? Well, we know now is a limited edition retro 51 Tornado.
Brad: Yeah, because popper is a very like physical name, right? I click the pen, right? Like it makes sense that that's tied into the popper. But it's actually not related to that at all. No. It's strictly the limited editions they work with for other retailers, for other brands, for the pens like I do. Apparently are poppers. I've never called them that ever. But I would use that term interchangeably as a physical descriptor of the pen as opposed to, you know, this just kind of, you know, limited edition outside of the standard brand work.
Myke: And I guess that's what makes it a little trickier is they do have multiple types of limited editions that they do. Some are kind of their own and then some are with other retailers or individuals.
Brad: Right. So here's what we can do going forward. If there's any like historical like issues we have with retro, we can just blame George. Like this is George's fault because he's not there anymore. So we can just blame him. So anything that's like period.
Myke: We just took over this mess. Yeah. Yeah.
Brad: This is George's fault.
Retro51 Graphic Post
Myke: Here's what I'm going to say, Brad. I'll tell you what I like about this. This whole thing. Just like from a meta perspective. I enjoyed that they made this post because it feels a little more part of the community.
Brad: It's fun, right?
Myke: Where I think Retro 51 have always been a little bit detached from the community aspect. Like not in a bad way. And they've always, they work with everyone. They work with you. Like, you know, they'll work with anyone in the community and produce products and stuff. But from a social media perspective, especially, they've always felt a little bit detached from it. And I like this because it's a little meme-y in a way and is, you know, referring to something going on in the space. And, you know, so, you know, I imagine quite a lot of Retro 51 fans are also listeners of this show, right? And so there's something fun about that, which I enjoy. And this is the kind of stuff that I want to see from the brand. And I want to see the brand become a little bit younger in that sense.
Brad: Yeah, it's the brand feeling that we like, like the general we as consumers of, you know, as repeated consumers of favorite brands to where we have like ownership of like, we feel like proud of the companies we support. Where we can say, oh, yeah, I really, like, I really, it's like the band that you really like, right? Like, oh, yeah, I'm like into, I like, I have all the albums and things like that. You get this ownership stake in it. And sometimes brands don't return that. Sometimes brands are colder in their marketing. And you don't really get that extra sense of attachment. That, you know, that you can, that you can, that's the good brands do have with their customers. So, yeah, I like it. I like the feel of it. It was funny. And it was funny because I just like you had made me mad. I was like, this doesn't make any sense. Oh, wait, this makes complete sense. I got it.
Myke: Yeah. It's like, I wrote all my notes out. Because I kept the post and I just put it in our show notes today. And then I went and wrote like all my stuff. And it's like, this is retroactive continuity. This isn't true. And then I was like, let me just go check. And I looked at their website and I was like, oh. Unless this whole thing is a big conspiracy. It could be a bit. I'm okay with that. They've changed everything on the website too after we shone a light on it, you know. I don't think so. I'm going to go with no on that.
Brad: Speaking of memeable, Myke, I think I have actually, the Toma pen that I fawned over last week, I think it might end up turning into a meme here on the show, one of our recurring themes. Because I may have gotten out over my skis on this one. So after our conversation about the, hey, do you still like pens conversation from last week? If you missed that, go listen to last week's episode. It was a funny, funny one. I got, I started talking about these Toma pens that I've been seeing on Instagram and going, boy, these are great. I love them. These are like exactly my style, my aesthetic. Like I need to look at these, like they're super expensive. So I'm going to start working on them. And then I started getting links and emails about them in a very positive way. So a listener, like Nate Champion, sent me an image. He's like, hey, I just got one recently. Why don't you take a look at this? I'm like, so I clicked the link. Have you clicked that link yet, Myke? Oh yeah. Have you looked at this?
Myke: It's huge. I had no idea of the scale of this pen.
Brad: Same here. So I looked at this pen. I was like, oh man, that looks good. So this is on Instagram and it's like a three panel, three image thing. So yeah, this looks good. Image one looks great. Image two. Okay. Nate's got this really close up of him writing with it. That looks pretty big. That's a big pen. Then you click over to picture three. It's like, oh my God, it's going to eat the 823. It's humongous. It's like three X a Pilot 823. Yeah. If you like, if you've rebuilt the Pilot 823 and like extended it out, like I think that pen could take three pens worth of a Pilot 823. And that's a big pen. The Pilot 823 for me is a large pen. I think this is off the list until I look at things further. And it didn't end there, Myke. Our good friend CY sent me a video. Did you watch this video? Yes, I saw this video. We're going to put this in the show notes.
Myke: And I do not know what is happening.
Brad: This is why the pen costs $3,000, right? So it shows, I guess, I don't know if it's Mr. Toma. I think it's his name. What's his? Oh, where'd it go? Yeah, Mr. Toma. Filling the eyedropper, but with like this additional eyedropper attachment that comes with the pen.
Myke: You get that with it, do you? Because I wasn't sure about that.
Brad: It's got to be, right? That's like, I don't know. This pen's $3,000.
Myke: Yeah.
Brad: Right? It's got to be like something like that. So I was in love with the shape and the style and the design and the aesthetic and all that stuff. And now it looks like they're all like the size of like a literal banana. I think I'm going to have to pass. I think I'm going to have to scratch this one off the list.
Myke: Oh, you think so? When I saw this, I thought that you would be more interested in it now because it's so weird.
Brad: No, I can't use a pen that big. I'm not going to spend that kind of money for a product I just can't use all the time. Unless there's smaller ones.
Toma Pen Discussion
Myke: I just wanted to have a comparison in the Discord. Alan's posted that it's larger than a Namiki Emperor.
Brad: Yeah. The ends, the nib. Like the nib's all handmade. Like there's a reason why it costs this much. Not just because of the size, because it's like literally all handmade throughout. Including the nib and the feeds and everything. I just, I would not enjoy using the pen despite how great I think it looks. Right. It's not, it wouldn't be for me. So I'm going to look around. Maybe there's like a small version, but I don't think there is because I think one of the keys of this Toma pen product is the nib, right? To have this super large nib idea that is handmade. And I think that's like the primary feature. Then the pen is secondary. So I don't know that you're going to get something smaller than that. But I'll keep looking around. So maybe, maybe after this episode, I'll get some smaller Toma pen links, but I don't think I will. So for now.
Myke: You look like you, like you could actually cause grievous bodily harm to someone with this pen. It's, it's like, it's ginormous. The nib is unnecessarily large. Like it's long, really long in, in like a disproportionate way. It's very peculiar. I would love to see one. I can't imagine. Like for everything you've said, imagine way more for me. Like I would never go near this pen. It just doesn't make any sense for me size wise, but yeah. But like, cool.
Brad: See why I did say they are based in Tokyo. So, you know, maybe we'll, we'll get to look at them and take a picture with them. But I don't think, I don't know that I could get that back through customs.
Myke: Like this is definitely a weapon in disguise. This episode of the pen addict is brought to you by Kemro Industries, who are introducing the new SD Gold Rush series from Estabook. It has been a year in development and they could not be more pleased with the results of their new golden child. Gold Rush is here in their first two colors of the collection. And it's all the shimmer to be expected from their premium SD. Available in Dreamer Purple and Prospector Black, Gold Rush is so artfully designed. It's almost like jewelry. The new SD Gold Rush series perfectly blends from the US made diamond cast material, making it a wonderful combination of shimmer and gold. And every pen holds unique characteristics. So no two pens are alike. I love, I love those details. That's, that's always super cool. Uh, like other premium SD pens made from diamond cast, Gold Rush is this season's introduction and is available in limited quantities and will be likely gone just as quickly as the gold boom itself was. The premium is going to be an actual Gold Rush, I think. The premium Gold Rush SDs will also be available as standard and oversized gold trim fountain pens. Plus it's available as a rollerball and for the first time a ballpoint as well. So I've spoken about it on the show before. I have one of the, the diamond cast ones, right? Which is the Rocky Top. I keep coming back to this pen and I absolutely love it. Like it's really stunning. But one of my very favorite features is the way that the cap goes on where it's got that kind of, it's like a different kind of pressure because it's doing something to make a seal, right? To stop the nib from drying out and stuff like that. I think it's really well designed. I'm a big fan of it.
Brad: Yeah. So I have one of the diamond cast. I have the blue one. Gosh, what's the name? I should have looked up the name of it. It's one of the coolest pens. I own a Estabrook. Ken Rose sent it to me last year. I love it. And what's funny is I'm glad we had this ad right after the Toma because the Estabrook is a larger size pen for me. Like I have the Estabrook oversize, but it fits my hand perfectly, right? It is correctly sized. It is correctly weighted. It is correctly balanced. And then the diamond cast materials like this new gold rush, the dreamer purple. Every time I've seen the pictures of these since they launched them just a couple of days ago, these just came out. I keep stopping and looking. I was like, oh, that is cool. Oh, that is cool. And then I didn't even see the Prospector black. That is just wild looking. I think that this is going to do super well. I love the colors. And yeah, they keep crushing it.
Myke: You can go and check these out for yourself right now. You really should. Super awesome. Go over to Penn Chalet, P-E-N-C-H-A-L-E-T.com, and you can see the new SD Gold Rush series from Estabrook. Our thanks to Kemro Industries for their support of this show and Relay FM.
Brad: I think I'm going to have to go ink one up right after the show. That's what I've been thinking about ever since I saw these pictures come out. I was like, I need to go use my Estabrook. I rotate in and out of all these pens so much. I get on these whims. I'll clean everything out and then start slowly filling up pens. And then you all of a sudden get a million pens. And now I need to go ink up another one, another Estabrook. So yeah, they're fun.
Myke: Yeah, these are really, really good looking. Oh my God, that purple one? What? Yeah, it's crazy.
Brad: The other good thing about these is you can get the Journal or Noob. From certain authorized retailers of Estabrook, which is the nib that Gina from Custom Nib Studio did. It's kind of like a medium stubbish kind of nib, which I really enjoy. So it's great. All right, Myke. I picked up a new podcast in my feed over the weekend. I was followed on Instagram by the Pen Noobs. And I was like, hey, what is this? So I scrolled through and they had an Instagram feed and said, hey, this podcast is coming. And I don't know if they tagged me or whatever. But I was like, okay, I'm always in. I'm always into new Instagram feeds, always into new podcasts. So Jika and Ryan, they're teachers from the Philippines. And they are kind of just getting into this. Like Ryan, from what I'm listening to, there's two episodes out now. And we'll put a link in the show notes for y'all to go download them or subscribe to the podcast and your player of choice into their Instagram feed. Go check them out. They do a really good job. And they're coming at it really from like the very newbie level. I think Ryan's been into Fountain Pens for like a year. Jika like maybe two years. But the discussions they're having and trying to figure things out, I'm just like nodding my head. I'm like, yeah, yeah. Then I'm like, no, no. Like, which is like how we used to be, right? I'm sure people like listen to us in the beginning. Like, yeah, okay, I get that. It's like, oh, no, that's not what you want to do. It's like I love hearing that process from people getting into this hobby. I think it's really fun. I think it's valuable for anyone to listen to. Anyone that's if you're super experienced with podcasts or fountain pens, excuse me, or you're just new to this. It's really approachable. They have a really fun conversation around how they got into pens and what they're using and why they like certain things and all that. They've got a good Instagram page. I'm going to have to follow this Instagram page. Yeah, great Instagram page. And, you know, they got the Twisby Go on there, right? Yeah. And I see Myke spying the keyboard in the back of one of the things. And, you know, it's just they have fun. And this is the kind of content I love sharing and love hearing. And so, yeah, good job by Jika and Ryan. I'm a subscriber. I've enjoyed the first two episodes. So keep it up. Keep it going. You know, this is also another, you know, just kind of little checkmark for those of you who've always thought about creating a blog or a podcast or even just an Instagram feed and like hesitating because it's been done before. Don't ever let that get in your way. You're your own voice. You know, let your voice speak. It's unique to everyone else's voice and just go for it. And I think that's what Jika and Ryan did here. And I'm enjoying it.
Myke: Cool recommendation. All right.
Brad: Check it out. I'm glad I brought a beverage with me today because these next two little entries that y'all can't see in our show notes are very short. And Myke's probably wondering, wow, that's not a lot of topics to talk about today. But I actually have a lot of things to say about the Morimun Croquis notebook that I reviewed or did my initial kind of unboxing and testing on the Twitch stream yesterday.
Myke: Right.
Brad: Because it goes into a lot of the reasons why I like doing this for my job. It hits like all the things. So I'm going to tell y'all a little bit about how the sausage gets made here with some of the behind the scenes stuff. And I got a lot of talking, Myke. So if you have any questions, just interrupt me. But this came about like I've been a Mormon fan forever. Right. Like if you go back on the blog, I didn't see the date of my first Mormon review, but I always thought they make great paper. And I don't use it that frequently. Like it's good paper. I know it's good. They tend to, I tend to only use them on the desk because I like their Nemo scene spiral bound pads. They're really, really nice. Really great for all types of pens, fountain pens, gel pens, pencils, whatever. But I don't really carry them around because of the format and the build spiral bound. So I'm well familiar with the brand, reviewed them tons of times on the blog. Out of the blue, I got an email a few weeks ago from Mormon. Said, hey, we've been listening to the podcast and you keep talking about Tomoe River replacements. And I got something I want to send you. I was like, I'm super familiar with Mormon. It's excellent paper. And yeah, I love it. For fountain pens, they're like, no, no. We have this brand called Croquis. Croquis. And it's C-R-O-Q-U-I-S. I think it's pronounced like Marquis, right? Like Croquis. Croquis. Mm-hmm.
Myke: No. Croquis. Not Croquis. Not, yeah. Not Croquis. Croquis. Maybe Croquis. It may not have the S on the end. Yeah.
Brad: Croquis is probably how it is. So they sent me like a care package. Mormon sent me a care package. And I was like, cool. It's like, you know, open it up. I was like, yeah, I've tested all this stuff. I've seen the Croquis. It's been out for a long time, right? It's existed. Like I've seen it because the logo on the notebook cover is very identifiable. Is that like art deco-y kind of? Is that how you would classify it? I would say art deco. Yeah, I think so.
Myke: Especially with the font and the colors. Like that really tall and thin lettering. Yeah. That leans very art deco for me.
Brad: Yeah, it's great. It's cool design. I've seen these forever. Why haven't I tested it? This is the question I'm asking in my head. Because they market them as the Mormon Croquis sketchbook. Okay? So that is the name. Mormon Croquis Diary Sketchbook. Mormon Pocket Croquis Sketchbook. Cool. Awesome sketchbook. Very fun sketchbook for Mormon. Looks great. I'm sure it works wonderfully well for all your sketching needs. I just left it at that. You know, it's been years since I've seen these and never just tested them because, hey, it's a sketchbook. I don't really need a sketchbook in my rotation. So they're like, let me send you this and I just want you to try it. So they did. And I opened them up on stream yesterday. What I tend to do on stream is I'll unbox.
Myke: They make a diary version. Yeah.
Brad: Oh, just you wait. Okay. Sorry. I'm like looking around the website now. Yeah. Okay. Like just that hum, they make a blank. It gets better. Okay. So I'm doing this whole unboxing. That's why I like Twitch because I can just do it blindly and fumble through it. And we know immediately I can say, oh, this is bad or, oh, this is good or, oh, look how well this handles this or, oh, look how bad this did. Right. It's literally, I don't want to be like biased by anything. Right. So I get on the stream and I'm testing out the little notebook. It's the A5 size. It's got this cream colored paper and I'm testing it out with, this is the one they said, like, try this out with fountain pens. So I get these ink swabs and I start writing with it. And I was like, oh, wow, this is really nice. It's kind of got a little bit of texture. It reminds me of bank paper as far as like the color and the feel goes. But the ink behaves better than on bank paper. Like it sits up a little bit. So the, the A5 cream color is a 60 GSM paper. Right. And it's, I started putting down the ink swabs. I started just writing on it. I was like, it just kept making me go, huh? Really? Huh? Really? It's looks that good. Huh? It's sheening that well. It's shading that well. It's not bleeding. It's not feathering. You know, there's a little bit of ghosting like a Tomoe river. I was like, this is one of the best papers I've used in just a long time. Right. I love bank paper. Bank paper is my norm. This is close to that, but works better for fountain pen ink. Okay. So I'm going through this and we're all getting interested now. There's like, Brad, try this, Brad, try that. So everyone watching, we're just kind of going through the things. And it's like, yeah, look at all the sheen. Like I got a sheening ink to try and I got a shading ink to try. And it all just worked really, really well. So then we start looking. The question comes up, like what, how cream is this cream colored paper? And I'm like, it's, it's pretty, you know, it's, it's ivory like cream. It's definitely got, it's definitely yellow. Right. And everyone's like, well, it'd be cool if it was white. And I was like, yeah, that would be cool. Wouldn't it? And so I started getting out of all these other notebooks and like comparing like the shade of the paper on there. Right. This is one of those things you could do just on a whim.
Croquis Notebook Review
Brad: So that's when people start looking online is like, oh, there's a white version of this page. And I'm like, oh, really? But they sent me another. They sent me a second. They sent me like 10 things. So they sent me a second sketchbook, a larger A4 model croquis, which is white page 52 GSM paper. And it's also marketed again. This is the croquis sketch pad where the small one is called the, what it's called the, oh, it's also called the croquis sketch pad. They're just A5 and A6 size, but they're completely different papers. Right. 60 GSM cream in the A5, 52 GSM white in the A4. I was like, well, that's confusing. I tested out the A4. It's pretty good. You know, it's great for a white background paper. Right. Just a, you know, a solid white for the most part paper and the fountain pens behaved well, but they didn't have the character or the ink or the shade of the 60 GSM cream. And so like that was kind of the results of that little test is like, I personally really like the cream color 60 GSM. It feels great. It looks great. It works great. Right. So why haven't I tried this before? Well, like I alluded to the, the marketing of this is this is a sketch pad. Now.
Myke: I mean, it unequivocally is right. Like that. As someone was saying in the chat, they don't, they don't do dot or grid markings. They call it a sketchbook. It's just plain. Like this is a sketchbook for people that sketch.
Brad: Right. So, and in sketchbooks, I generally think, you know, they're going to handle, you know, all kinds of media you can throw at them. Like, you know, even up to like watercolors from like pencils to watercolors is kind of what I think of a sketchbook. So I never even looked at the paper weights to this. Right. I just assumed they were the thicker pages, but 52 and 60 GSM paper is thin. Right. Like if you think of like a pocket notebook, like a field notes, those are usually around 60 GSM paper or 70. I can't remember. So yeah, it's a generally thin paper where sketch notebook, sketch paper is like thicker, like over a hundred, like a hundred, 120, you know, thicker. It's going to handle, you know, water, watercolors.
Myke: GSM, that, that, that grammage, that weight, I don't know where it's handling things well.
Brad: Right. But turns out, Myke, it is one of the coolest fountain pen papers I've used for me personally. Like I really, really enjoyed it. And I'm going to recommend the heck out of this. And I'm going to review it obviously well, because I love it. I've since written five pages in, in this little pad, just testing everything out. And it's good. Like not everyone's going to like it because it does have a little bit of texture, but that's what I like about the bank paper. Surely it bleeds through like wild. No, like zero. How? At 60? That's Tomoe River level of no bleed, no feathering. Literally zero.
Myke: I'm unhappy about this.
Brad: Like I'll take pictures of this.
Myke: I believe you, you know. And I think you're in the pocket of big croquis over there.
Brad: Yeah, I'm not in the pocket of big Mormon. Yeah. Like this is, Mormon didn't ask me to do anything. They're just like, hey, I think you might like this. And as it turns out, I love it. I love it. But there was no way I was going to buy this product because it's for my needs versus how it's marketed. Right? I look at it. I say, cool. I love Mormon. But just throw up my hand. It's a sketchbook. That is not my product. This is a good quality fountain pen notebook. So now the question comes. Well, why can't we get this? And this paper is amazing. But I want it in like a traditional journal style. Like give me something soft bound like Midori. You know how they make all those journals. And this have like the soft bound covers. And you can get different things. Or you could even do like a big hard bound cover. They just come in these sketch pads, essentially. So I emailed them back. I was like, look. Okay. You were right. Here's the link to my video. And we were talking about, you know, why we would like this paper but in other formats. And they listened to that. And they sent me a link. They're like, oh, by the way, we have this product called the Morimon Gliffy. That uses the croquis paper. And it's in the stitch bound notebook that you want. I'm like, son of a gun. So if you look up Morimon Gliffy, it basically is non-existent. Except in a couple shops in Europe and in Japan. They have one in the Netherlands here, right? Yep. So I found one in the Netherlands. The rest were in Japan.
Myke: I'm confused about the sizes of these notebooks.
Brad: It's very interesting. So this is not exactly what I want. I want this 60 GSM croquis paper in like a more traditional journal. Either soft cover or hard cover. I don't care. Not like a pad. So this is a pad. This is a glue bound pad, right? You just tear the sheets out. They're very clean. They're great. The Gliffy is what I want. But the paper is thicker.
Myke: 90 GSM.
Brad: There's a 90 and then there's 128. These are the ones that should be called sketchbooks.
Myke: This is wild.
Brad: And like if you even go to Morimon's website, like the main Morimon website, Gliffy is not a product. Like I found one image and a broken link to the Gliffy. So Morimon.
Myke: Also 48 pages?
Brad: Yeah. So that seems light. Yeah. So it's the thicker page, right? It's 90 GSM. So if you look at the 24 page one is the 120 GSM, right? Because that's they're just trying to keep a small notebook binding.
Myke: Yeah.
Brad: Ready.
Myke: But then they're writing paper one and rolled one is 48 pages. And that's.
Brad: So again, these have squared. These have grids.
Myke: Yeah.
Brad: Like some of these have grids. It's like everything's so backwards. All right, Chad has found me a Gliffy page on Morimon's website. This is what I want with the 60 GSM. Morimon, I know you're listening. I'm going to talk directly to you. Dear Morimon, the 60 GSM cream paper in the croquis sketchbook is excellent fountain pen and other pen paper. It should be a standalone product in a more traditional binding and should be marketed as such. The word sketchbook should not be in this new product that you're going to make because of this podcast. Thank you, Brad.
Myke: Or alternatively, if you don't want to do it, you can just make available to me or Brad this paper and we will make a product of our own using said paper.
Brad: Okay. So I'm going to read a translation of this link that I got.
Myke: These are our terms. These are our terms. This is our demand.
Brad: So this is Google Translate. Take it for what it's worth. They're translating Gliffy into Griffy. So that's what we're working with.
Myke: Also, all I read is Giphy.
Brad: Yeah. That's all I read.
Myke: Yeah.
Brad: So the 60 GSM entry reads, it is a high class croaky paper with rough skin that reproduces the historical paper with the duck board traces duck boards use when making paper. That's just saying it's textured the way the paper's manufacturing. What's a duck board? If you look at, you know, how you can see like lines in the paper if you hold them up to the light and see like that tactile texture of it. It is compatible with drawing and writing with pencils, mechanical pencils, ballpoint pens, et cetera, various hardness and have been developed so that the delicate touch due to pin pressure can be utilized. Okay. That wasn't very helpful.
Myke: I really like the idea of like, hey, this paper is compatible with writing instruments. I like the need, the requirement. It is paper. It's not just for wrapping, right? You can write on this.
Brad: If they turn this into their mainline fountain pen notebook, it would do extremely well. The 50 white would not do as well because it's a little bit more absorbent. The 60 cream is like bank paper plus. It's like bank paper with more fountain pen friendly features, which is something that I like. So it's textured, it's cream colored, but the ink works really, really well on it. So that's my thought process on how this, like how this came about, how me figuring this out, you know, why have I missed it? Like I think about all these things. And then in the end, like realizing this is really freaking good. And it's just sitting there like untested for fountain pens mostly, right? Like, you know, I don't want to pretend like no one's used fountain pens on this, but it's just like, it's been out there for years. It just exists. It is freaking fantastic. I love it. But so this brought me into another rabbit hole, Myke. Okay. And my brain started working over time based on one aspect of this croaky 60 GSM cream paper. But first, we need to hear from our friends at Squarespace.
Myke: I'm actually quite excited about this ad today.
Brad: Really? Really?
Myke: Yeah, because we have, we have new Squarespace ad copy. And this is the first time I've read it. Awesome. I'm excited. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one platform to build your online presence and run your business. From websites and online stores to marketing tools and analytics, they've got you covered. Squarespace combines cutting edge design and world class engineering, making it easier than ever to establish your home online and make your ideas a reality. Squarespace has everything you need to create a beautiful and modern website. You start with a professional design template and use drag and drop tools to make it your own. You can customize the look and feel, the settings, the products you have on sale and more with just a few clicks. And all Squarespace websites are optimized for mobile. So your content automatically adjusts. So it's going to look great on any device. You'll also get free unlimited hosting, top of the line security and dependable resources to help you succeed. There's nothing to patch or upgrade. They have award winning 24 seven customer support and they'll even let you quickly and easily grab a unique domain name. Plus, you have everything you need for SEO and email marketing to get your ideas out there. You can use Squarespace to turn your big idea into a new website, showcase your work with their incredible portfolio designs, publish your next blog post, promote your business, announce an upcoming event and so much more. I recently rebranded my like redesigned my Squarespace website at Myke Hurley.net just to be like a nice little landing page for me. It's kind of like this is me. This is who I am. And this is all the stuff that I do. And it's just something I just spent a little bit of time on one day. Got it all set up really easy. Go to squarespace.com slash pen addict for a free trial with no credit card required. And when you're ready to launch, use the offer code pen addict to save 10% of your first purchase of a website or domain. At squarespace.com slash pen addict. And when you decide to sign up, use the offer code pen addict to get 10% of your first purchase and show your support for the pen addict podcast. Thanks to Squarespace for their support of this show and all of Relay FM.
Brad: It's hard to lead into this next topic. And I use the header meta, like a meta topic. Get no.
Analog Satisfaction
Brad: Satisfaction. So in all the years I've been doing the pen addict thing, like you try to figure out how to explain an analog tool in words. Right. To people that can't feel the same thing you're feeling. And there's never like I can say like something feels good or, you know, I like the weight of this or it's balanced well. And it's still like hard to have these like all these descriptors. So when I was playing with the croquis yesterday, like I tore one of the pages out. Right. This is a very clean tearing paper. Like this would be a great letter writing pad for someone because it's like super clean A5. So I tore out this page and it has this crinkle to it. Let me see if I can catch it on the microphone. Probably not. It might be too quiet. Let me see.
Brad: So I don't know if you could hear that, but it was like me.
Myke: I can hear how thin that paper is now. That's like tracing paper kind of thin. Right.
Brad: So, but it has this thickness to it that almost makes it like kind of crack when you bend it. Right. This is not what copy paper feels like. This is not what notebook paper feels like. There's this crinkle to it. And it reminded me of Anna's paper that she used in that vintage writing pad, which was very thick and kind of crinkly. And like it kind of has those same properties. I don't know what that means, but I got satisfaction out of that. And I didn't, I like, I wasn't thinking about this at the time. And I was like, so that is, that was enjoyable.
Myke: Can get some.
Brad: Mm-hmm. Turns out. Turns out. Yes. Yes. To satisfaction.
Myke: Satisfaction.
Brad: So I was, I was just messing around with that. I was like, you know, later in the day I was writing just random notes and things. And I pulled out the, the Nakaya that I talk about so much, my favorite, the portable, the black Eo Temanuri. And I uncapped it, grabbed it, and, you know, put my fingers on the grip section and touched the nib to the page. I'm like, and I got a little grin, like on my face. Like that's, that's satisfaction. I was like, why do I keep thinking? Like why today am I feeling all these like little things that aren't like the main features? And I was trying to figure that out. So like how did like the term satisfaction stick with me all of a sudden yesterday after all these years of trying to explain like these things, right? And like I even wrote in our notes, like, I don't think I could write this for the newsletter because like I'm, I'm not a good enough writer to write about feelings in an eloquent fashion. I can write about feelings, but it's just like generally rambly madness. So I'd rather do the rambly madness on the podcast. So it goes like this, Myke. Okay.
Brad: This is like why the bigger picture, why I like stationary, why pens matter to me, why I do this pen addict thing. It's like, it's back like anyone who's like a pen addict who really cares about what they write with. You're always looking for something better than what you had. Like if it started when you were a kid, you probably had some crappy big ballpoint and you're trying to find like something better. Like this is a pen. It writes, but I want to write a different way. And so you go on this search and that's what led me to, you know, making the blog. But like, how do you describe what works for you? Like I said a minute ago, like I said, it feels great or it makes me smile. Right. I think it like satisfaction kind of takes all those personal thoughts and puts them like into one word, like when I'm describing stationary. And it's, it's very, it's personal, right? That, that word's important. What satisfy, what it's, it gives me satisfaction may not give you satisfaction. Right. It's like, it's the, it's those little personal things beyond like what we see on the outside, like all the external stuff. Ooh, that's a pretty pen. Right. But then there's satisfaction of the depth of the artwork for you or the translucency for me. That's the satisfaction part. So that paper kind of got me thinking about that and the way that paper crinkled. I was like, oh man, like no one's going to sit there. You don't buy the croquis pad and sit there so you can flip around the paper and hear the crinkle noises. Right. Yeah. These are your intangibles, right? Yeah.
Myke: These are the things that you can't describe. Like, so, like, I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, but the, I find the, in the theme system journal, the, the perforation that we have on the corner to be very satisfying. That's exactly right. Because it does exactly what I want to do. It tears out perfectly every time and doesn't require any pre-folding. And that's what I was looking for. Like, when I decided I wanted to do the corner perforation, I was looking for something that felt good. And it was, and it is this. It is, I was looking for something that was, it was a satisfying thing to remove. Right.
Brad: Right. So, we buy the theme system journal because we like the idea of journaling and we like the format that it, that it provides. We like the performance of the paper. We like, we get to color in, you know, color in our, our habit trackers. But then, like, when you're using it and you turn the page, you go, oh, today's the day I get to pull the perforation corner out. That's the satisfaction. Right. Because people who are into that think about that. It's like, ooh, I get to do this today. Then they, they grab it with both of their fingers and it snaps. And you go, ah, yeah. Then you go, where do I throw this? I'm not near a trash can. I don't, I don't know what to do with this right now.
Myke: But like, that's a, some people keep them, you know.
Brad: It can keep them like the, like the corks in the, in the bottle. Just make a stack of them.
Myke: Well, like, I know some people keep them like in a little jar or something. And so, they can visually see how many days they've gone through. I think it's kind of cute.
Brad: So, like, that, that crinkle on that page. Satisfaction. Like, as much as I, the Nakaya, right, is like an impressive pen for every reason under the sun. Artistry, creativity, quality, manufacture. The things that make, thing that makes me happy the most is when I unscrew it the first time and grab the nibs, grab the grip section and put the nib on the page. It's just like, damn. Like, that's it. And then I'm just right. And then I don't think about it anymore. Then I'm thinking like, oh, this is a great pen. But that satisfaction happened earlier in that moment. Right? Like, one of the oldest products that I always talk about, like, I've talked about, like, the Hall of Fame stationary products. And I haven't used this product in years. But the Dome Paper Idea Journal is one of the most satisfying products I've ever used just because of the way it's built. Right? Notebooks don't get built like the Dome Paper Idea Journal. It's big. It's heavy. It's bulky. It's thick. It's got great paper format that I like. So, I'll sit there and I used to use it at my old day job because it was great for, like, gel ink pens and pencils. And it's not great for fountain pens. But, like, that's irrelevant when I feel it because I pick it up and I'm like, damn, that's a notebook. That is satisfying. Right? This is, like, crazy. And then the using it is the bonus. Right? That's the cool stuff. So, I feel like it's, like, just so, so hard to explain. Like, the pen type B is another one, Myke.
Myke: Oh, yeah. Right? There you go. Yeah, okay.
Brad: That's not the satisfying part. The satisfying part is thinking about how that happens. Hmm. I get to pull it and make the pop.
Brad: But what gives me satisfaction is thinking about the engineering that happened and the design and the work that came before the sound.
Myke: Interesting.
Brad: That's what I get out of this pen.
Myke: So, that kind of sets the idea that what can be satisfying isn't the same thing. Right. Because, like, pulling off the perforated corner is similar to popping the pen. Mm-hmm. But what you find satisfying isn't the pen pop itself. Mm-hmm. It's, like, the thing around that.
Brad: Right. So, it's, like, I don't know. It's just one of those thoughts I wanted to just get out loud because I don't know that I could write about it. Yeah. You know? Like, what other? I'm trying to think of, like, this is a very short list, right? Like, this is a, the satisfying, like, the ultimate satisfaction things is a teeny, teeny, tiny list. I love all kinds of products. Like, I'm sitting here. One of the pens I'm using today is my Sailor Fujiyama Blue, the bung box one with Mount Fuji, rotten. I love everything about that pen. I want to use the pen all day, every day. But never do I, like, stop and go, huh, okay. Right. Got it. Like, it's awesome. It's, like, an elite product. It's one of my favorite pens. But I can't, I don't want to say that it doesn't satisfy me. I don't want to be unfair to the product, but it's different. And that's what's hard to explain. Like, I don't know what other things in the stationary world they're of. Like, and it's individual. Like, everyone has their own satisfaction thing. Maybe it's, you know, the Maquiai artwork that they can see the detail, like, under the lacquering. Gives them satisfaction. Like, the piston mechanism of a pelican, right, is probably someone's satisfaction. Because it's unlike any other piston on the market. It works so well. Point retention on a wooden pencil. That's when I decided to love wooden pencils. When, oh, you mean I can use a wooden pencil and not have to sharpen it every two lines? Oh, and so is there a pencil that, you know, has that just perfect satisfaction of point retention and darkness that I didn't think was possible before, you know? So, all of the products I use and love, that's a bigger pull. But these little satisfaction bits are what keeps me, like, kind of going and searching and gets me excited, right, when I discovered this paper yesterday. So, like, these two conversations kind of roll in together. Yeah. I think a little bit because I just kind of had that feeling yesterday is, like, not only is this good, there's something different about it that makes me feel different about it. And that sets it apart for me personally. And those are the things that are really hard when I sit down to write a review to explain to readers or to elaborate on to listeners because what is satisfying to me just may be, you know, a loud paper to you, right? It's like, how do you figure those things out? So, you know, it's just like, like I was saying back to the sailor, like the Fujiyama, right? It's a standout product, right? It's beautiful. It's aesthetic. It's killer. It feels great. It works perfectly for me.
Brad: But, like, pick out the part that is the most satisfying. I mean, just like the whole pen is great. But there's a difference in the products where you can find, like, just this true satisfaction with stationery. And, like, I'll never stop looking for it. That's what keeps me going. So it's fun to run into something completely random like a silly Art Deco logo sketchbook from Morimon that set me down this path of what satisfies me about the stationery I use.
Myke: I have no arguments there. I mean, satisfaction is such a beautiful word for it because it is so much of the things that we do like are the intangible things that are otherwise difficult to describe. That's what we said, right? But that calling it satisfaction is kind of perfect. And I can see why from the way that you described the Morimon croaky notebook.
Myke: Because it defies a little bit of logic, right? It's also not necessarily on paper. No pun intended. The type of product you would want to use. But there was just something about it that made it good to use. It made it a satisfying product. And also, the satisfaction thing is also cool. It's interesting because it is the thing that you will get after you've made your purchase decision, right? Like, I don't know how easy it would be to truly understand how satisfying you found something until you actually have the time to use it a bit, you know? That's exactly right.
Brad: It's like an extra bonus. Like, my Nakaya fits that description, right? Like, I worked at deciding on what Nakaya I wanted to get, right? I've talked about this a million times. Like, I put in time and effort to learn and read, to make a correct purchasing decision.
Brad: And, like, all of that, you know, that helped me get to where I am, you know, four or five years after I bought that pen to just get this ultimate satisfaction about uncapping it, gripping it, and beginning to write.
Myke: All right. Should we do some hashtag ask TPA questions before we finish out the episode today? Let's do it. All right. Frames asks, how do you clean out the gunk that accumulates in the threads of a fountain pen barrel?
Brad: It happens, doesn't it? Like, you just get stuff there. It could be, who knows? Who knows? I just, I honestly, there's no real, like, scientific method to do this. I run my fingernail through the thread from top to bottom. And if that doesn't work, I'll run my, I'll get a paper towel and then put that between my fingernail and the thread and run it all the way around. You know, however many spins it takes me to get through it. Like, there's no, and then, like, if I'm cleaning the pen, you know, I'll just run water through it and get that paper towel and just run it through. So, just make sure I'm pressing something into that thread, which is usually my fingernail.
Myke: I use for this what I would call a cotton bud, but you would call a Q-tip.
Brad: Yeah. Like, I don't know that they get deep enough.
Myke: Like, if you press it enough, because they're cottony, right? So that you can kind of... I guess if they're wet. That's why, like, I wet it a little bit or put water in it and then it will soak it up a bit. But I think I saw somebody ask as well about cleaning out this same gunk from the tines of a fountain pen. Do you have any specifics?
Brad: I do. I do. I use a brass shim for that. I keep two things on my desk that I don't have to go hunt down for when, you know, something's up with a fountain pen. It's the brass shim, which you just run through the tines and it'll clean out, like, any paper fibers that get stuck in there. Especially with someone like me who uses extra fine nibs more so than wider nibs. It's going to affect those more.
Brad: And then secondly, I keep a bit of... I keep a little square of the 12,000 grit sandpaper. It's like just this little block that I keep. You put a little dab of water on it and you just kind of write circles with your pen. Then that helps to smooth things out. That's more if I get a new pen, say, like a Twisby, and, like, I want to adjust it just a little bit. Like, maybe it's a little scratchy or something like that and you can just run real softly over that. Like, I keep those things on my desk because I use them frequently enough to where they're not hidden off and it's, like, one-off type of things. I use them to help me write better and to make the pens perform better. So, you can pick those up at, you know... You can usually get, like, a kit at different, you know, online retailers of, like, maintenance and cleaning type things. But brass shim and a little piece of sandpaper, the 12,000 grit, it's, like, a super, super, super fine grit sandpaper. Like, total... That'll set you back for both of those things, like, $5, $6, right? And you just keep them on your desk.
Myke: I don't own a brass shim and I never will.
Myke: Because every time I think of them, I think of how bad you could get a paper cut from one of those. And it makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like to think about it.
Typewriter Inquiry
Brad: Uh-huh. It's... So, the goal with the shim is you keep using the corners, right? And you rotate the corners as you use them. And then, as they dull, you trim the sheet. It's like a little sheet. You can cut it with scissors. Then it's like sharpening a knife. Then... We don't let Myke around those.
Myke: I couldn't. Oh, my God.
Myke: Ben asks, have you ever given typewriters a try? As a mode of analog writing. Myke especially, since I feel typewriters are not that far from the keyboard wheelhouse.
Myke: So, I want to say about the keyboard thing. It's like asking, have you ever thought of a quill?
Myke: It's like... Yeah, I mean, ostensibly, these are the same, but that you couldn't be further away. We're watching... We're re-watching Parks and Recreation right now. And on that episode we saw last night, actually, Ron has a typewriter. And he is annoying everyone around him with the pure amount of noise that he's producing. I used to have, when I was a kid... And it wasn't mine, but it was in my grandparents' house. An electric typewriter. Sure. Because it was something that my granddad used. And I used to like playing around with that. But obviously, the thing that I hated about it, which is the same thing I would hate now, is... You can't delete anything. Like, when I say it's an electric typewriter, it wasn't one of these ones that prints. It was an electric... Like, you know, like you'd see it on a screen and press print. It was an electric typewriter. Oh, yeah. But, you know, everything you pressed, it put on the paper. Yeah. So...
Brad: Like, the keys fired off a little easier with the electric than just like the pure analog.
Myke: Yeah. Yeah.
Brad: I love the idea of a typewriter. I will... That's something I won't get into. And I think the biggest reason why is because it's a loose leaf, right? I can't stick a journal in a typewriter. Right, right. At least not healthily, right? So then you just end up... Unless you're like letter writing or writing a novel or writing a poem or something like that that you want to have that aesthetic for. I don't have a use for it because I'm not going to go and write, like, you know, how was my day today in stacks of loose leaf. Although I'm sure that's completely viable and there's ways to bind those things. But, like, my point is I like my stuff together and the typewriters kind of skip that. And I don't write letters enough to make that efficient. Although I completely love the idea and the look of typewriters. And every now and then I'll get typewritten letters from listeners and they're just... I just love them. Love them to death. But it's not something I'll ever have in my arsenal.
Myke: No. And it's the thing that you were saying just then about... I'm sure there's a way that you could, like, bind loose leaf pages into this journal. And it's like, yeah, I'm sure it's possible. But to go to that, to those lengths, you already have to really want to do it. Which neither of us really want to. Right? You know what I mean? Like, we don't want to do it that bad that we would go to those lengths. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely.
Brad: Absolutely. It's like, I love it. I just don't want to do it.
Myke: All right. Last question comes from Jay. And Jay wants to know, what stationary set would you recommend for the Atlanta Braves fan in your life?
Brad: This is a much bigger question than Jay is prepared for. Oh, gosh. I could do an entire podcast of where I'm at with the Braves right now. And I don't mean the play on the field. They're your soccer team, right? No, the baseball. Oh, which one's the soccer team? This is, that's Wolverhampton. No, no, no. The Atlanta-based. Oh, United. United.
Myke: Oh, it's just ATL United?
Brad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Myke: Oh, okay.
Brad: So, the Braves are the baseball team that I've been a fan of for probably 30, God, more than that years. A lot of years. Big part of my life. I actually thought about this question a lot. And it's almost impossible for me because of two conflicting thoughts on this. So, the Braves colors, you know, like generally when you're looking at fandom and teams and getting to match, you tend to go with the colors, right? To say, hey, this is a representation of my team's colors. And the Braves colors are red, white, and blue. Very basic. I think red, white, and blue in fountain pens, and I'm saying fountain pens because I know Jay is mostly a fountain pen user, but I think he uses other stuff. Red, white, and blue generally does not work for me in fountain pens, right? Like the Lamy's come out with some stuff. Kaweco's come out with some stuff where they mix and match these red, white, and blues. They've never been my thing. Red, white, and blue in acrylics never works for me. It just, it's not that aesthetic. So, what I would do personally, and Jay is really not going to like this because I know Jay well. And I know he wants me to say it, tell him some fountain pen. But what I would do, and you could do this with a fountain pen too, but what I personally would do is get like a blue pocket notebook, like a right notepads. Like they had the, whichever the octopus one was, and have like the red, red pencil from like CW pencils. You can just grab one of their red pencils. Like a Caran d'Ache makes a nice, just red lacquered pencil. Like that would be all I need to represent fandom because I just don't think it works in fountain pens. You could get a navy pen, red ink, and white paper to kind of represent that if you wanted to. But it just, those colors are shockingly hard for me to recommend any like fountain pen and ink combination. So, I'll take this up offline with Jay and see where we're getting that. See what, you know, specifics we need to handle. But this is a surprisingly difficult question because I generally don't like any pens that are red, white, and blue. Like give me a white Lamy with a red clip and maybe a blue ink. That would be the move as opposed to like the red, white, and blue pre-made Lamy. You know, something like that. So, I've overthought this question a lot because it's an impossible to me answer.
Myke: I never know. I never know the questions that are going to set you off, you know.
Brad: Yeah, this one, I could go another 10 minutes on this.
Myke: Maybe we should save it for 11 seconds.
Brad: And not get anywhere. Like that's the point. I would never get anywhere. So, I should just shut up.
Myke: If you would like to send in a question for a future episode of the show, just send out a tweet with the hashtag AskTPA. Use question mark AskTPA in the RelayFM members Discord. Or you can send them via email to hello at penaddict.com. You can go to penaddict.com and you can find lots of Brad and others, many wonderful others at work, talking about different pens and reviews and that kind of stuff. You can go to knock.co and spokedesign.com where you can find Brad's awesome products. We were talking about Brad streaming earlier on in the show and he was showing off a lot of those notebooks, the crookie notebooks. Brad actually publishes his streams to YouTube and I put a link in his show notes to the YouTube video if you want to catch it up. But you should watch live Tuesdays, Thursdays, 10 a.m. Eastern Time on twitch.tv slash penaddict. Brad is penaddict on Instagram. Dowdy is on Twitter. I am imike. I-M-Y-K-E. I stream every Friday on Twitch at mike.live. This week it's going to be at 10.30 a.m. Eastern Time. I'm looking at some new keycap sets. You know how I do. You can find the Theme System Journal over at cortexmerch.com. You can go and pick one of those up. Set your season right. Thank you so much to Squarespace and Camero for their support of this show. Most of all, thank you for listening. We'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye, Brad. Goodbye, Brad. THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE