The Pen Addict 400/transcript

The Pen Addict Podcast Transcript
Episode:	400
Title:	Pen Addict 101
Release Date:	March 4th, 2020
Hosts:	Brad Dowdy Myke Hurley
Guests:	No guests this episode
Additional Information
Official page:	Episode 400
Audio File:	Audio Episode 400
Podcast page:	The Pen Addict 400
Length:	7878 min <br />1.3 h <br /> minutes
Previous Transcript	Next Transcript

Myke Hurley: From RelayFM, this is The Pen Addict, episode 400, and it is our Pen Addict 101 episode. Today's show is brought to you by Warby Parker and ExpressVPN. Here on The Pen Addict, we discuss pens, paper, and the analogue tools we love so dearly. My name is Myke Hurley, and I am joined by the knock of all knowledge that is Brad Dowdy.

Brad Dowdy: Wow, that was wonderful, Myke. Thank you for doing that. Can you believe it's been 400 episodes?

Myke Hurley: I cannot. This is quite a day for us over here, as we have gone into episode 400. We've been recording this show for just over eight years now. We're going to talk about that. Over the course of this episode, now what we're actually planning on doing today, what this episode is, is with any podcast that has amassed the amount of episodes that we have, that actually has lots of information in it. Like, it's not just a news podcast, right? You can listen back to this show. You can go back three years and find something that is of interest. For people that are coming into the show that are new listeners, we get asked quite a lot, where should we start? And so we have decided that for episode 400, we're going to give a jumping off point to new people. So hello, if you are new to The Pen Addict. This is indeed, as you have guessed from the name, a podcast all about pens. Mostly fountain pens, some other stuff. We're going to talk about exactly all of that throughout this episode. We will also reintroduce ourselves. Allow me to reintroduce myself. My name is Myke Hurley. I am a podcaster. I've been podcasting since 2010, so actually going to be a decade coming up real soon. This podcast is a part of, currently, the Real AFM Podcast Network, which I founded in August 2014. And I've been podcasting full-time since November of 2014. And more recently, in 2019, I co-founded a company called Cortex Brand, which produces, and the reason that is of interest to the listeners of this show, is because we produce products, physical products, like the Theme System Journal. So I am now in the business of making notebooks with a purpose. So I'll include some links to those in the show notes. But the most important person here is Brad Dowdy. This show is named after Brad Dowdy. It's not called the Brad Dowdy. It's called the Pen Addict. Brad Dowdy is the Pen Addict and has been doing this stuff for a very long time. So, Brad Dowdy, please take it away.

Pen Addict History

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, it has been quite a while, Myke. I started, for all of our new listeners, I am the Pen Addict. I go online by the Pen Addict pretty much anywhere I can get a hold of that name. And my blog is penaddict.com, which I started all the way back in the year 2007. November 29th, I believe, is the exact date. And it has been a wonderful journey that has led into the awesomeness part of what you hear today in episode 400 of this podcast. I've had various dalliances throughout the years as the Pen Addict has become more than a blog. It has become part of my life and then eventually my job, which, you know, they always say, you know, never turn your hobby into a job. Well, Myke, for me, they're kind of one in the same. And I'm super glad that it's that way.

Myke Hurley: You have a jobby like me.

Brad Dowdy: I have a jobby. So part of my history takes me through a little bit of an employment bump in 2011. I worked for a company called JetPens. If you're new to the show, they're my favorite Japanese pen retailer here in the U.S., which is where I'm based. Myke failed to mention he is in London. We do this podcast via Skype across many time zones for your listening pleasure. At one point, I worked for JetPens when I was doing the blog. And, you know, I still always had a day job, but I did some marketing work for them back in 2011. In 2012, Myke, we started this podcast.

Myke Hurley: After a guest episode. So I was doing a podcast, which is now defunct, called The Enough Podcast with our friend Patrick Rohn. And we had Brad as a guest on that show. And I got on with Brad so well and thought he was so interesting and such a great explainer. I was like, I want to record that show with that guy. I want to make a show with him about pens. Because, you know, we've both been interested in pens and paper for a long time. Brad kept that interest up longer than I did and kind of with more passion than I did. But I wanted to get back into it and thought that Brad would be the perfect person to host a show with. And so I asked him and then convinced him over time.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. So you asked me and I told you no.

Myke Hurley: Yep. No one would listen to that.

Brad Dowdy: No one will listen to this. And then Myke saw something there and he kept pressing me and twisted my arm enough to where I said, okay, let's give this a shot.

Myke Hurley: I think it took about a year, I think, to convince you.

Brad Dowdy: I'm not sure that long. But, yeah, I think it took a while. And then once he finally convinced me, I figured we had about 10 episodes in us. Like, and then we'd be done. That would be all the pen stuff we could talk about, right?

Myke Hurley: Mm-hmm.

Brad Dowdy: Who knew? Who knew what we were actually getting into at the time? So it's been an awesome run. And there were some other highlights during this time. I started a company with my friend Jeff Brookwicky called Knock. We make pen cases. And we went through a Kickstarter project that we discussed many times throughout the pen addict's history. And then kind of the big turning point for me personally and professionally in 2016, January 1st, I quit my day job to do the pen addict and all the other work I do related to the pen addict full time. So that was a big deal. And we'll have a few links in the show notes to some of these historical landmark times of our podcasting and our existence, at least on the stationary internet. And then most recently, I've partnered with another friend, Brian Conte, to launch a product called Spoke Pen, which we did just last year. So in the 12 years since I've started the pen addict, I have done lots of things. And I'm just passionate about pens and stationary and all the things that go along with it. And I think it's shown. I think it's worked out, Myke. What do you think?

Myke Hurley: You would like to think so.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. Because we're still here. We're still here. And we're still getting new listeners all of the time, right? So that's why we want to do this episode, to give you a little bit of history, give you a little background about who we are, what we do. And we're going to continue on with that today and giving you kind of the 101 breakdown of a few of the things that we have discussed over these 400 episodes. Like the podcast history, Myke. Yeah. Why don't you help me out with this section? Our podcast history is generally compact, but it has some good stories contained within, right?

Myke Hurley: Yeah. So the pen addict has long surpassed any other project that I've done. I often say this, but my relationship with Brad is one of the longest relationships of my life outside of family because we've been working together for longer than I've known my wife. We have been working together for longer than any of my other working relationships. This is the only podcast that I am doing that I have been doing since basically the beginning of my career. We started on a network that I created in like 2011 called 70 Decibels. That was where the podcast began. Then we then moved the podcast to 5x5 when we started working there. And then when me and Stephen Hackett, my co-founder, decided to create our own company, RelayFM, it moved again. So it's moved three times. So if you are going back through the course of history of this show, you will hear references to companies that either don't exist anymore or that this podcast is not a part of anymore. But that kind of explains its life. One, there's a couple of interesting moments in the show's history, which are just good for posterity's sake. In August 2012, Brad decided to take a break from the show and from everything. You took a break from The Pen Addict completely because you were going through, I believe, a pretty difficult time in your working career.

Myke Hurley: And we weren't sure. Kind of at the time, we said like the show is done, but not over, you know. We weren't sure what was going to happen. And then Brad returned in November of that year, which is always funny to me that it was only like four months or something. Because it feels like when I think back that it was a very long time, but it wasn't actually that long.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. Number one, just the time that it happened seems like forever ago, which I guess in the internet timing, I guess, you know, eight years ago is forever ago. But it was definitely weird. I went back and listened to that entire episode this weekend as I was preparing for this show. And, you know, I could definitely hear it in my voice. And I think at the time, I don't know if you thought I was ever coming back. I didn't know if I was coming back. I had stopped, basically stopped writing the blog. It became, you know, too much work with the mix of real work, you know, my day job and life and all these things. It just became too much at the time. So I just, I'm not a person that can do less. I'll either do it all or I'll do nothing. So I had to turn it off completely, essentially, during that time. And that's when I figured out that I really love doing it. And I miss the pen addict and I miss writing. And I miss the podcast at the time, even though we were only 28 episodes into it.

Myke Hurley: Which is also so wild to consider that it was so early on in the show's life.

Brad Dowdy: It could have ended right there. Like, could you imagine? Like, I don't like to think about it in those terms, right? So luckily, I am built for this. Like, I'm built to love stationary and talk about it. Like, that's what I want to do. So it was an easy choice once I had a little bit of a break, came back. And we've been flying ever since, I'd say. Wouldn't you say?

Myke Hurley: I would. One of the important things in this show's history is our Kickstarter campaigns. So we had a wild idea as we were approaching episode 150 of the show back in 2015. That me and Brad, you know, we were becoming increasingly saddened by the fact that we had never met in person. Because at that point, like, I was traveling to lots of conferences and stuff. But they were never things that Brad was attending. They were more technology focused. Because my other podcasts and I do are more technology focused. So all the way back then, we decided for episode 150 that we would get together at the Atlanta Pen Show, which is Brad's home pen show. And we would record an episode of the show in person. And the Kickstarter campaign was an incredible success. We funded very quickly. There are many episodes. Basically, every time it's a Kickstarter, you'll get me and Brad crying on the show. This is very possible we'll cry before the end of the episode today because that's just what we do. And then the Kickstarter campaigns have continued to be a thing that we do every single year. We're approaching our sixth campaign this year. We always visit Atlanta as part of this. But we've also been able to go to the DC Pen Show, the Toronto Pen Show, the San Francisco Pen Show. And we went to Chicago as well to record an episode with the crew over at Field Notes. And we may be going to Dallas this year for our sixth episode, for our sixth Kickstarter campaign.

Brad Dowdy: Do you remember back in episode 150, the room we recorded the podcast in? Because that was our first time recording. We did not have a studio audience. I remember that episode vividly.

Myke Hurley: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Brad Dowdy: It's like I can't remember some of the podcasts that we had in front of an audience. But during that time, we just got basically like the shell of a hotel ballroom and set up some tables and cameras and, you know, the Hackett Brothers audio AV team. And that was it, me, you, and Ana. So that was pretty crazy.

Myke Hurley: Yeah. I remember one of the things I remember because these are shot on video for the Kickstarter campaign. We give out video versions to the backers. Because I remember how bright the lights were the first time because I've never recorded in front of lights before. Yeah.

Brad Dowdy: Because they were so close to us because we didn't have a crowd to deal with. A couple of other podcasts, you know, with 400 episodes, you could point out a million different things in the history of the podcast. But two things I wanted to point out. One, our very first guest. Did you know this before I put it in the show document?

Myke Hurley: No, I don't know if I would have guessed it either.

Brad Dowdy: I don't know that I would have guessed it either. It was Myke Rohde, our good friend from Sketchnote fame. Episode 17, very first guest of The Pen Addict. I think he's been a return guest since then. But we've had, we've just had tons and tons of guests since then, which is fantastic. And then the person who is our most recurring guest and the official third host of The Pen Addict podcast, Anna Reinhardt from The Well Appointed Desk. Her first appearance was all the way in episode 54. I was thinking it might have been sooner. But just since then, I mean, she's been on the show, I don't know, 12, 15 times. I didn't even bother to count. It's a lot. So we love Anna. She's our bestie. And she always travels with us on our Kickstarter campaigns. And she's just awesome. And that is one of those friendships that comes from this podcast, which is such a valuable thing. You know, 400 episodes in. You know, that's certainly the thing I'll remember the most is the friends we made along the way.

Myke Hurley: That's so beautiful. All right. This episode is not all just about The Pen Addict. Like, I hope that now we have given you kind of like a primer as to who we are and what we do. But now, after this break, what we're going to do is talk about the products themselves and give a kind of a glossary, an overall like set of terms and basics that you might want to know if you are starting to get involved in this hobby. But today's episode is brought to you by Warby Parker. Warby Parker was founded by four friends of a rebellious spirit and a lofty goal to create boutique quality eyewear at a revolutionary price point by allowing you to buy your glasses online. Their free home try-on program makes it so easy. You order five pairs and you try them on for five days with no obligation to buy. Shipping is also free and includes a prepaid return shipping label. So super simple. Just go to warbyparker.com slash penaddict and you can take their quiz right now and order your free home try-ons today. Warby Parker glasses start at $95. That includes prescription lenses and an anti-glare coating and anti-scratch coatings all included as well. I've been wearing Warby Parker glasses for about a year now and I absolutely love them. I couldn't find, I was looking for like a specific look and I could only find them with Warby Parker and I was super happy. But their whole system, the home try-on system is fantastic because you're able to try on glasses, show them to your loved ones at your own home. You're not kind of being looked at or judged by any store assistants. And you can also try those glasses on with your own clothes as well, maybe mix them up a little bit. So you get to see like how are these going to look on a daily basis. Super important. And now they have Scout by Warby Parker, which are comfortable, breathable and affordable daily contact lenses made from a super moist material that resists drying for lasting hydration and comfort. You can order a trial pack that includes six days worth of contacts for just $5 and then also receive $5 off your next Warby Parker order. And this is great for every pair of glasses that are sold. Warby Parker distributes a pair to somebody in need. You can learn more about Warby Parker at warbyparker.com slash penaddict. That's warbyparker.com slash penaddict. Our thanks to Warby Parker for their support of this show and RelayFM.

Brad Dowdy: We are going back to the beginning, Myke. This is the new episode one of the Pen Addict Podcast where we explain to people who are just learning about the Pen Addict Podcast, who are just learning about good pens and good stationery. What are the things that they're looking at and looking for when they're trying to make a decision on what pen or pencil or paper or fountain pen ink they like? So consider this the glossary. I think we're going to go through several basic topics. Now, I want to say we're going to cover a lot. We're not going to cover everything. But these, as many of the people who have listened to all 400 episodes will have learned already, these are the topics that come up the most. These are kind of the general buckets of pens or paper or what have you that we mention the most. And we want to take this time to explain just the very, very basic stuff once again. How does that sound?

Myke Hurley: I think that is absolutely perfect. All right. All right. So what we're going to do here, I'm going to fire out some phrases to you and you can help explain them to our audience. How does that sound? Sounds great. So let's start off with like your typical pens, the pens that you're going to have the most access to, the stuff that you're going to find in your local staples, your local WH Smiths. Let's start with like ballpoints and rollerballs, actually. Let's talk about these together because I think it's important because a lot of people, including me, gets these two confused all the time. What is a ballpoint? What is a rollerball? What makes them different? What makes them similar?

Brad Dowdy: To this day, these terms get interchanged. Sometimes accurately, sometimes inaccurately. The overarching issue is that nearly all standard pens have a ball in the tip of the pen, which is how the ink transfers from the ink cartridge within the pen to the page. There's a little ball on the tip. So people will refer to this type of pen as a ball point, but that doesn't mean it's a ballpoint pen. Ballpoint pen refers to an ink type. A ballpoint ink is an oil-based ink. This is your most basic, most common type of ink you find in the pens you find at the bank, at the school. The most basic, it's a very dry ink. It's usually just in blue or black. Sometimes you'll get a red in there. And sometimes if they're not a good quality ballpoint, they'll be sticky or a little bit messy when you write. But the good thing about them is that they write anywhere on all types of paper. Like paper type doesn't matter. The ballpoint pen is going to write. You know, the situation you're writing in, the ballpoint pen is going to write. Think of your standard bit crystal ballpoint or your paper mate click ballpoints or your paper mate stick ballpoints, I should say. Anyway, this is the most basic, standard, generic pen. It usually has a ballpoint ink in it.

Brad Dowdy: These days, ballpoints have improved in their ink technology. You know, back in the day, you used to be able to smell a ballpoint ink when you wrote with it. It had this weird kind of not really attractive smell. And nowadays, you don't really get that anymore. You get lines that are a little bit cleaner. You get fancier types of inks and ballpoint pens. You can get them in new colors. But that's at its most basic, the ballpoint pen. The difference between that and a rollerball is nothing physical. It's just the ink. It's still a ball tip pen. But rollerball inks are a liquid ink. It's not an oil-based ink. So rollerball inks tend to go on a little bit thicker. They are generally darker, especially colors like black and blue. They're going to be darker in color than your ballpoint ink. But being a liquid ink, they're also prone to performing worse. So take your standard office paper, whether it's your copy paper, your legal pad. This is the black ink that soaks into the page. That's what the rollerball ink does. It has to be done right. Like the most famous, the most popular rollerball, I think, is the Pilot Precise V5. It's also the Uniball Vision. It's also another good quality rollerball. And we'll get into some more specific rollerball types later as we talk about this. But that's the primary difference between ballpoint and rollerball is really just ink. And that's what you're going to find in all of these types of categories. So ballpoints are an oil-based ink. They're generally pretty dry. They can be pretty messy. They're not very dark. Rollerball inks are wet and dark. But if you find a good one and you have good paper to write on, people really enjoy writing with rollerball pens.

Myke Hurley: And there are these types of pens. We use them, right? All the time. Yep. Because they can be really great and useful. And also, sometimes fountain pens are not acceptable. Filling out forms, that kind of stuff, right? Right.

Brad Dowdy: You can't do that.

Gel Pens

Myke Hurley: Okay. So we've established then that the rollerball's ballpoint is very similar, but just with some slight differences around ink. What is a gel pen then?

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, the gel pen's the newcomer to the pen game, if you will. I think it started like in the 1980s. I think Secura was the first one to make a gel ink pen. And what it tried to do was make a better rollerball type ink. So this is a pigment. The refill is a pigment in a gel suspension. So what this does is it thickens the ink. It makes it not as liquidy. It makes it even darker than rollerball inks. And when you write with a gel pen on that same office paper, the ink generally sits on top of the page. It doesn't get into the fibers of the paper like a rollerball. So therefore, it doesn't bleed or feather or spread out on your page. It takes a little bit longer to dry because of that. But in general, it's the smoothest, most color accurate, you know, deepest, richest colors that you'll find in ink pens and probably the most variety of colors because of the way the gel ink is manufactured. They are able to process, you know, dozens and dozens of different color types, which is something that I enjoy in a pen.

Myke Hurley: You can also get sparkly ones, too.

Brad Dowdy: You can get sparkly ones. You can get a really neat white gel pen that, you know, you can use for artwork. The gel pens, I don't think, you know, worldwide they sell the most, but they're the most enjoyable pens to use. They're just more expensive than ballpoints generally. So ballpoints are always going to sell the most just because you can buy them in bulk for cheap for, you know, different office type situations and bulk situations. But the gel pen is the pen that once people discover, that's the one that usually says, oh, I like how this one writes. I will keep this one.

Myke Hurley: Yeah, I was just about to say that, like, when somebody, you know, if you use a gel pen and you really like it, like a gel pen can be a thing that helps you discover that you like pens.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, I should say, like, the great example of this is the Pilot G2. Right. That's the world's most popular gel ink pen. And if you've ever used a G2, people who have never used a good pen, when they pick up a G2, they go, oh, I get it.

Myke Hurley: They know something's different. And, like, you go back far enough in this show and you will find, like, our conversations about the Pilot G2 because it was my pen that I was using when we started this show. Because it was like, oh, I love this pen. It's a great pen. And it is a great pen. It's one of my favorites of all time. I don't use it anymore, but I love it. But the refill as well is fantastic. And people use these refills in pens that are made of, like, different materials. So you can swap the refill out and put it in something that maybe has a fancier-looking body. Right. Exactly. But there are other refills, right, that are very frequently used and referred to on this show. Yeah.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. So we use one of the ones we refer to as a Parker-type refill. And that's from the Parker Pen Company. They made a very popular pen called the Parker Jotter, which was their retractable ballpoint pen. And the refill had a particular shape. And they just made, you know, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of these pens since, like, the 50s, 60s. I don't know, they might have even been before then. And that refill just became kind of the refill you used. And therefore, a lot of other companies built products around that shape of refill. The Pilot G2 became the modern version of that Parker refill. It's a different shape. It's a different size. And it's a different ink type. But it was so good and so popular that people started making things for just that refill. Those two refills are not the same shape. And to confuse things, the international refill market refers to the Parker-sized refill as the G2. So we'll see. We'll save that conversation for another day. But those are two completely different refills. But those are probably the two most popular refills on the market. The third one, at least in our world, the one that we talk about a lot is a rollerball refill. So this is interesting. These three refill types. The Parker refill is generally a ballpoint. They do make gel, but it's generally a ballpoint refill. The Pilot G2 refill is a gel. And then the Schmidt P8127 and the P8126 is a rollerball. It's a liquid ink refill. But it has become famous, at least in our world, because it's a quality ink that does not bleed like most lower-end rollerball types of pens do.

Myke Hurley: But these are basically the three best in their class. And that's why you will see these pens, these refills, I should say, used a lot in Kickstarter campaigns. So people that are creating a fancy pen body that they want people to buy, they will typically gravitate around one of these three. Yes. As kind of like, this is what we're going to base our pen on. Because then we know people are going to be able to easily get their hands on the refill. We don't have to go straight back to the drawing board. And then they also are basing it around some kind of standard which people can get their hands on.

Brad Dowdy: Yes. And also, these are the types of refills that other companies will make and mimic and copy. And so there's just tons of options in these three refill types.

Paper Types

Myke Hurley: But once you've got your pen sorted out, you need something to write on. And that's paper.

Myke Hurley: So you've got a few different things around paper. One is the type of paper that you're using. And then you also have the size or the format. Format can be, you know, like, do you want ring bound? Do you want it to be... My favorite is stitched, which means stapled, which is one of the funniest things to me. Uh-huh. Because stitches and staples. But then you can actually get books that are stitched together with thread. And that's like a whole different thing. It's very funny. But the sizes are also really important. So you've got A4, A5, A3, that kind of thing. What's the deal there, Brad?

Brad Dowdy: Out of all the things we discuss, and as technical as something like a fountain pen can be, I think paper is the single hardest thing to discuss clearly and give people a great idea of what we're talking about because there's so much variance. One of the things that I have talked about in these past 399 episodes is I believe in paper standards. I want to know what size paper I'm getting based on international standards. And we'll have a link in the show notes. And the best thing I can tell you for paper is go look at some of the links we put in the show notes. The A size paper is based on a one gigantic sheet of paper from the printing world that is 1189 millimeters by 841 millimeters. That's A0. That's the big piece of paper that comes shipped into a printing factory on a pallet, right? It's a big, huge piece of paper. Every A size after A0 is exactly half of the previous size before it. So you take an A0 sheet, you fold it in half, you now have an A1 dimension. You take an A1 dimension, fold it in half, you now have A2. So this gets down into the reasonable usage size, which for most people who would listen to a podcast about pens, the biggest size they generally will go with is called A4. That's, if you're not familiar with paper sizes, this is going to be ballpark around your copy paper size, like the 8.5 by 11 inch.

Myke Hurley: A4 is the type of paper that most people have had the most experience with. Yes. Because it's also incredibly close to, not exactly to, but close to both letter and legal. Yes. Pretty much they look the same when you look at them, even if there are some slight differences. But those are kind of, that is like your standard paper format size.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. So I think everything, well, I won't say everything. The majority of things that most people use in the stationary world revolve around the A4 size and then half of that, which is the A5 size, right? So the A4 is your full pad size and the A5 is kind of your half pad size that you see. A5 is basically the sweet spot. Yes. I think. A spot, A5, A spot. That's a new, that's a new term. That's not in the glossary. A5, A5 is kind of your desk pad, but it's not too big to where you just can't throw it in your bag or backpack to have on the go. It's a great note size.

Myke Hurley: Journals, diaries, typically around this size.

Brad Dowdy: Your hardback journals that you see, like if you see a Leuchtturm at Barnes & Noble, that's an A5 size. Or a Moleskine. Or a Moleskine. Which is probably better. Well.

Myke Hurley: So this is the problem.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, this is where we fight.

Myke Hurley: Then it becomes, A5 and A4, we've already mentioned letter and legal. At a certain point, they become referred to as just like a rough format size. Like, Moleskines are about A5 size. They're not exact, but they're about A5 size. Yeah.

Brad Dowdy: And this is where Brad gets upset, right? Because Moleskine is not A5. But if you look at it just, you know, in the world, it looks like, oh, it's A5-ish. And that's where I start to have problems. So I'm a believer in the true A5 sizes, and Moleskine is not that.

Myke Hurley: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Brad Dowdy: So this is, it's a tough thing to discuss. We're not even going to touch, we're not going to attempt paper weights. Because they're measured in what's called pounds, which is not a physical, you know, like a weight measurement. I mean, it's technically, it's a paper weight measurement, but you don't think of it in like, okay, Brad weighs a lot of pounds. It's not the same type of measurement. It's also measured in grams per square inch. So paper is extremely difficult to explain the details. What we focus on is more the size, the general sizes, like the A sizes. There's a lot of B sizes. You can go all the way. C sizes are somewhat common. There's F sizes out there now that are more square. So there's all kinds of things. But we mostly focus on the features of the paper. Like what does the paper feel? What, how does it perform with certain pen types? And honestly, it's one of the most important things to consider. If you're getting into stationary, as good as your favorite pen is, it's going to perform only as good as the paper you're using, right? If you're using even a gel pen, if you're using a Pilot G2 gel pen on your office copy paper, it's going to be fine. It's going to work well. If you use that on a different type of paper, say a rhodiopad, which I'll explain more in a minute, it's going to perform differently. So every little decision you make in your stationary, it's kind of like a chain reaction with the rest of it. You know, you take one pen from one page, it's going to perform completely differently. So the main topics that I like to discuss when we talk about the features a paper has, I want to know if the paper is coded or uncoded. And there's all kinds of terminology in the printer world on how the paper is finished, you know, whether it's hot pressed or cold pressed and all these technical details. But basically, coded and uncoded, you can feel it to the touch. Is it kind of smooth and glossy or is it a little bit rougher? Like these are honestly pretty close in feel, but you can tell a difference when they're side by side. And what a coded page does is it prevents the ink from seeping into the fibers of the paper as quickly. Now, you can get in there with like a, you know, a lot of ink on the page. It will soak it in like it's not rejecting the ink. Don't think that I'm what I'm saying is coded. This is like you're writing on linoleum or something. It's just a smoother type. That's good for your liquid inks, right? Anything that bleeds into standard basic uncoded paper, you're going to be going to use coded paper for. Now, the downside to that is it's going to take a while to dry, right? Ink dries on a page based on how fast it's absorbed into the page, right? So there's a balance you're trying to find with the pen types you like with the paper type that works the best for that. So, you know, a popular example of a coded page is a brand called Rhodia. They make probably some of the best notepads in the world. I would certainly vouch for that. I don't think that's an unfair statement. And I think a lot of people will agree in general.

Myke Hurley: Super good starter, right? Like if you are currently using Moleskine's or something like that or something and you want to improve, you want to like take the next level up. I really, really recommend Rhodia paper. They come in so many different formats. They have books that look like Moleskine books, but they also have pads that you can just use and you just tear a page out or whatever. And then once you've started down that world, you will be able to move into other areas. But I think that Rhodia have excellent paper quality, good pricing, and in every conceivable format that you're looking for.

Brad Dowdy: And they're widely available. Like this is a worldwide brand.

Myke Hurley: Yeah, like I have walked into stores in the UK and have found Rhodia pads. Like you typically have to find like a stationary store, like one that carries stuff. But I've found like if you can find somewhere that carries Lamy pens, you'll find the same place will probably carry a Rhodia paper. And those two are like, and we'll get into those later on the pen stuff. But those are like really good, let's get an upgrade on my Bic and Moleskine lifestyle.

Brad Dowdy: The uncoated popular pages are like Leuchtturm, Moleskine, those types. They work well with fountain pens, but they're generally going to work better with your ballpoints, rollerballs, gels, things like that for the most part. You can use fountain pens with them. I have good success with fountain pens with them. It's just a little bit different dry time, a little bit different if you're using a lot of fountain pens and bright colored inks, the ink will look different, right? The ink might be brighter on a coded page than an uncoded page because the ink is sitting up on top of the page. The other thing to think about when you're buying a notebook is the format. Now, this is probably the easiest thing for you to get. You either look at the page and decide, oh, I like that it's blank. Oh, I like the lines that are going across it. Or you can have like a grid or a graph or you can have a dot. So the format is the most obvious thing. You know, it's not even something we need to explain. But those are kind of the four basic formats. There's a million other formats out there.

Myke Hurley: And I would be super surprised if everybody listening to this does not already know exactly what they want with blank lined grid or dot. Like, yes, you don't even have to really have experienced them to know what you want. Right. I am a dot or grid person, but preferably dot person because I like a little structure, but I like the page to a glance look like it's blank. That's my my feeling on these things.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. So for what's a very a very simple thing, a piece of paper, I think it's one of the most complex things to fully explain. But the good thing is you don't really have to go deep into that rabbit hole. There's a big rabbit hole there, but you can stay up on top ground and be just fine with paper as long as you're considering what you're using and how it works with the certain pen type that you choose.

Myke Hurley: Personally, I think that lined paper is like a crime. But, you know, you do you. I just don't. Lines just seems so strange to me, really. Like, I don't really understand why people buy lined paper. But, you know, if that's your thing, go for it. I think we're just all scarred from our school days. It just feels like a prison to me. Right. Like, you can only write in this one direction and in this space and enjoy it. It's like, OK, thank you, Mr. Lined Paper. So we've spoken about regular standard pens, right? We have yet to get to. Should we do pencils now? We can. Pencils is pretty straightforward. I think we should do pencils now. Yeah. That's what because after this, we're going to talk about fountain pens. And there's a lot in fountain pens. So why don't we talk about pencils? Pencils.

Brad Dowdy: So you have two basic types of pencils. Your wooden pencils, which are the traditional pencil that you've seen for your entire life. The, you know, the yellow number two with the pink eraser, you know, that's your basic wooden pencil. And then you have your mechanical pencil, which has, you know, separate lead that you have to put into the pencil that is extended by a knocking mechanism on the back of the pen or a shaker mechanism within the mechanical pencil. So mechanical pencils can get fancy and complex or they can be very simple, straightforward lead delivery and writing mechanism. So the primary differences between the two is the wooden pencils are, are much more inexpensive because they're essentially, I guess, is disposable the right term. I don't want to say that in a negative way, but you, you use the entirety of the pen pencil and then it's gone. And then you pick up the next one and you use the entirety of that pencil. Then it's gone. Where a mechanical pencil, you keep one single pencil and you continue to refill it with lead. But, um, wooden pencils have seen a resurgence in the past decade. I love a really good quality wooden pencil. The popular brands out there now, um, Blackwing makes beautiful pencils. Karen Dash makes beautiful pencils. Viarco. There's a whole industry out there. Musgrave that makes wonderful wooden pencils that are way better than anything you've used back in your childhood or in school. Um, and they, there is a huge range with wooden pencils that you can kind of get in mechanical pencils, but there's a huge range of lead grades within the pencils. And I say lead, uh, it's not technically lead, it's graphite, but I like saying lead just seems to flow better when you're talking about pencils. Um, you can get a really, really firm and light, uh, lead grade, or you can get a really, really soft and dark lead grade. And you can get about, I don't know, 20 different grades in between, even more on some brands to, to, um, depending on how light, dark, smooth, firm, soft you want to write. So wooden pencils have great variety. Um, they're very out there fun to use, right? They just bring back these memories. Like this, it's like the purest analog writing, um, experience, I believe with, uh, wooden pencils, mechanical pencils. You can get very technical. You can get mechanisms that retract into themselves. So you're not poking yourself with the lead pipe that sticks out of them. You can get a lead that rotates within the barrel. Like the Urinubal Kuretoga is a famous mechanical pencil because it rotates the lead from a design and technical perspective. The Rotring 600 is kind of the, the cream of the crop as far as engineering type pencils go. This is what a lot of architects, engineers, and design students used, you know, back in the day.

Myke Hurley: It's the classic look of a mechanical pencil as well. Like if you think of a mechanical pencil, you were thinking of this one or those colored barrel ones that like Bic, is it Bic made those? Like the plastic colored barrel with the black erasers?

Brad Dowdy: Bic made the one that actually looks like a wooden pencil, the yellow or paper made made the one with the, with the, uh, that looked like a pencil. Then Bic made the one with like the colored clips, like black barrels and colored clips. Yep. Yep. So, um, I love pencils. Um, I use them quite frequently. They live on my desk. Again, like this is the, this is the top level discussion. The things you can get into with pencils, like people devote entire blogs on all of these topics that we're talking about, whether it's notebooks or ballpoint pens or wooden pencils, all of these things have their own specific categories and niche markets and all kinds of things you can get into. So, you know, this is a way for us to say, Hey, there's a lot of awesome stuff out there that you can explore. And hopefully this will make you ask more questions about, Hey, what's a good wooden pencil. And that's when you, you know, reach out to someone like Myke or myself. Well, in wooden pencils case, me, uh, not Myke, but, uh, I love, I love pencils. So I, they are a wonderful thing.

Myke Hurley: I'll say at this stage, we're throwing out a lot of brands and a lot of products and there's probably too many to keep an actual list in the show notes. I'm putting some stuff in there as we, as we're going through today. But one link that I will point people to right now is your top lists, your top five lists. Oh, sure. Because if you think to yourself, Oh, you know what? I want to try out a mechanical pencil. Brad has compiled on, on the pen addict website, uh, a selection of lists of different categories. Like, um, you're looking at different, some, you've got some ink stuff, wooden stuff, mechanical pencil stuff, uh, ballpoint pens, multi pens, fountain pens, under certain value levels. And a little bit of explanation about them all. It's like a really great resource to go in and take a look at. Like if there's a certain category that you're interested in, Brad has already put together some, some recommended lists and by and large, like me and him agree on pretty much all of them. Some numbers we'd swap around, but you know, I feel like that, that the, the, a lot of the lists that you've put together are really great consensuses of, uh, of what pens should people should buy into certain categories. Yep. And it's currently being updated. Always updated. Always updated. So I will, we'll give a little stretch now. We'll, uh, we'll limber up. Let's talk about fountain pens. All right. What I think we should do here is go end to end and explain each part of a fountain pen because they're much more complicated. They have a lot more going on. So I think we should do that. I think first we should start talking about the materials that they're made from and then kind of explain each part and what it does. How does that sound?

Brad Dowdy: That sounds good to me. And I would like to have a little bit of introduction to this as we still get so many new listeners that have only explored wooden pencils or gel pens that are interested in learning more about fountain pens. Don't let any of this intimidate you. No. It is actually very, very much more simple than what we're about to lay out in these next several minutes.

Myke Hurley: But there is just more, there is more choice in this world, in this part of the pen world. So there seems to, so there are just more permutations of what you can go for. It's worth noting, if you go back to the beginning of this show, neither me nor Brad were using fountain pens at all. In fact, there is a quote, I don't remember exactly, but Brad Dowdy said that he didn't care about fountain pens. That was, you know, you can go back long enough in the show and you will come to that. And now we both use fountain pens predominantly, for me, almost exclusively. And we have lots of different types of fountain pen. And that's the majority of the discussion on episodes these days. We'll focus around fountain pens because there is a lot of really exciting stuff that you can get into there. So we'll, and as you hear us talk about these, you'll understand maybe a little bit more why. Because this hobby, the pen hobby, ultimately it becomes an idea of choice about you getting what you want. And there is no greater realm in this hobby than in fountain pens of being able to get exactly what you want.

Fountain Pen Customization

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, I refer to the fountain pen market as the most customizable pen for you. Right? It's just, there's so many options and you can dial it right into the most perfect writing experience for you in particular.

Myke Hurley: Like there are choices in mechanic, there are choices in wooden pencils. But you will run out of those choices quickly compared to fountain pens where you can just go forever. So let's start talking about what are the typical materials used to make a fountain pen?

Brad Dowdy: The most common, far and away, huge percentage of the market is either plastic or acrylic. You know, those terms are interchangeable.

Myke Hurley: Easy to work with, easy to shape, easy to make in bulk, and also easy to make in lots of really interesting and fun colors.

Brad Dowdy: Right. So that's the thing you'll see at the very inexpensive, like less than $10 end of the market. You'll just see like your basic clear or, you know, smoke gray tube, you know, essentially for the barrel of the pen. And then it can go all the way up into just rainbows and swirls and wild acrylic materials that people are customizing and handmaking pens from. But really, that's just the most common. It's the most, you know, affordable type of material that is made in bulk, right? There's always caveats to everything we're about to say. But in the general sense of things, you know, far and away, you're going to see more fountain pens made out of plastics and acrylics than anything else.

Myke Hurley: My cheapest and my most expensive fountain pens are both made of plastic. Yep. And I'll tell you right now, the difference in price between my cheapest is like it's many hundreds X, right? Like it's, you know, it's a big, big difference.

Brad Dowdy: It's a lot of X. Yeah. Um, you'll also find fountain pens in various metals. So there's metal is another, um, material that's, I won't call it easy to work with, but there's a lot of machine shops and large factories that work with metal barrel pens. Um, they're a little bit more expensive, obviously, just because of metal types, like the, the low end of the metal pens are going to be more expensive than the low end of the fountain pens. Everything above a certain price point at all gets mixed up into other, other things. But you'll find, you know, brass, aluminum, titanium, all kinds of pretty much any type of metal that is, you know, easily work withable by a machinist or, or factories is going to end up in a fountain pen. One of the classic styles of fountain pen barrels are made from wood. There's all kinds of wood types. I'm sure probably some of the early fountain pens were, were made with a nib, you know, stuck on the end of a piece of wood that you could use as like a dip pen. Right. Yeah. So wood has seen a rise over the years as we get more and more makers into this type of industry. You'll see less wood in the large brands, um, even though they still do make pens with wood parts like Lamy does. I know pilot has on occasion, things like that. Some of the brands we'll talk about later. Um, but you'll see that more in individual, smaller shops, smaller makers. Ebonite is a classic fountain pen material because it's easily shaped. Um, it can come in different dyes and patterns. It has, it's, you know, basically, I guess the term is vulcanized rubber, but it doesn't feel like that. It's a very, uh, firm material, but it lends itself to fountain pens because it's able to hold its shape. Well, it's easier to work with. It's not as easy as an acrylic to color, right? You can't get the most bright ebonite pens materials, but ebonite is also used as a base for a base material for, let's say, lacquer artwork to go over the top of, which we'll explore a little bit later. Um, and the last one I wanted to mention is celluloid, which is a different, it's in that kind of acrylic ebonite category, but it's just a little bit different consistency and feel in the pen barrel. Um, out of this list, it's probably the lowest use and it's more expensive because I think it's just harder to manufacture. But celluloid is popular because you can get beautiful colors and patterns out of that when you're starting to get into higher end or some vintage fountain pens. It's just a beautiful, beautiful material.

Myke Hurley: All right. So these are what you'll find your pens to be made of. Typically there'll be some, some mixtures, you know, like a plastic pen may have some metal pieces to it. So you're looking at like, uh, you know, maybe it's a cap or maybe it's just a clip or maybe some bands. And when you have that stuff, when, when you have, uh, parts of the pen made out of a different material to the rest of the pens, it's referred to as the furniture of the pen, which is a wonderful phrase that I love so much. But if you have like a plastic pen and it has a silver clip and maybe a silver, we'll get into what this means in a moment, finial, uh, that is known as the furniture, the silver furniture, which is wonderful. So let's start with that then. What is a finial? Where does it go?

Brad Dowdy: On the top of the top of the pen and the bottom of the bottom of the pen. So the bottom of the barrel and the top of the cap are generally areas where manufacturers will do extra things, right? Whether it's having some type of etching or having some type of insert, it's just generally a place where extra artwork goes to make the pen look special. It could be just a simple, like, I don't know, a simple shape, like the tip, the top of the cap could be pointed, like, um, you know, or it could have a little medallion insert and, you know, that can go on the top of the pen or the bottom of the pen. And it's generally referred to as a finial.

Myke Hurley: So you already mentioned it, but the majority of the pen is called the barrel. So what is, what is, what do we need to know about that?

Brad Dowdy: The barrel is pretty much what you're going to hold in your hand, right? It's kind of the important handwriting, uh, or it's the, the important comfort place for your handwriting. You want to have a barrel, the barrel can be wide, it can be narrow, it can have different, um, different etchings on it. It can have different shapes built in. It can be a little bit wavy, but that's the part that's going to hit your hand. And you want to, you're going to want to make sure that the barrel is comfortable when you're holding it. Um, and then for example, the cap will generally go cover up the nib of the fountain pen. And we're going to talk about all these things. It's hard to, it's hard to do this without do talk about the cap without talking about the other things that are involved with the cap. But I think the cap is pretty self-explanatory as well as the clip. So the clip is usually attached to the cap of a fountain pen and some fountain pens don't have a clip. And the clips, like Myke said, they can be made of all different kinds of materials. Um, and some people like clips. Some people don't like clips. Some companies make really fancy clips. Some people, some companies make very plain and nondescript clips. So it's just a place where manufacturers can, uh, take as many liberties as they want with the pen design.

Brad Dowdy: The most important part, many people will argue with a fountain pen is the nib. So that is where all of the glorious writing that you see on Instagram comes from.

Myke Hurley: It's where a lot of the money is, is taken up as well.

Nib Types

Brad Dowdy: Right. So there's all kinds of different types of nibs you can get. The primary, primary categories of nibs are steel nibs, which are the least expensive. And I'll go over the properties of each of these after I list them out. Then there's gold nibs, which is your main upgrade point and huge price jump point. And then there's titanium nibs. So there's nibs made of, of other materials. Of course, um, there's things like glass nibs and other categories, but for 90% of your pens, you're going to either have a steel nib, a gold nib or titanium nib. So let me explain a little bit of the difference. So steel is definitely the most cost efficient nib. It is generally firmer than gold and titanium. You know, it's just a stiffer material. It's a very consistent line that you get because of that stiffness. It's not as pliable or as flexible or as moldable as gold and titanium. And it's probably, you know, the number one universal type of nib. You know, a lot of pens are just going to come with a steel nib option just because of cost. Steel nibs can be glorious. They can be some of the best writing nibs you'll ever have. Um, one of the things we're going to talk about in the future, in future episodes, and maybe the, the, the secondary episode to this is, you know, steel versus gold, uh, and why you would make a choice between the two. But in general, it's a cost thing, but it's not a performance thing to be perfectly honest. You can feel the difference between steel and a gold nib, but based on your writing style, it may not make your writing look that much different for the increasing costs that you're going to, uh, have to take on to afford a gold nib. Now, gold nibs are fantastic in their own right. They generally start with a, the 14 carat gold nib, um, and then go up to the 21 carat gold nib. So there, so 14, 18, and 21 carat are the main stops in the gold quantity of the nibs. The 14 carat being, uh, more of a mix, uh, of gold and other materials, and then 21 being more gold in the nib. And that just means it's a softer nib, um, a little bit more flexible, um, a little bit more feel and bounce in the nib. When you're writing also at a much greater price point. So 14 carat gold is going to be, you know, 10 times as much as a steel nib and a 21 carat gold is probably going to be 15 or more times, um, expensive than a steel nib. You know, it's just whatever the market rate for gold and how these companies are, are handling their gold stockpile to make this. I mean, it's a rare material and they're making, they're making these parts out of it and you will see the price jump greatly from a steel nib in the same barrel as a gold nib. It's, it's, it can be, you know, hundreds of dollars worth of difference. Titanium kind of falls in between steel and gold. And it's also not used that much, but it's common enough to where I think we should mention it. Um, it's an interesting material. It generally has some flex and some give to the nib. It has, um, a price point that is interesting enough for people to test it out. And it's just for some reason, whatever that reason is, it's never become as popular as steel or gold. I think it's just a little bit of a feel issue for a lot of people. It can get squeaky. Yeah, it can get squeaky or a look, a looks issue, right? It's not as good looking to be perfectly honest as steel or gold.

Myke Hurley: It looks like an unpolished metal basically because that's, you know, kind of what it is a lot of times. Right. Um, and it doesn't, it can be, it's more expensive than steel, uh, typically less expensive than gold, but doesn't offer the sex appeal that a gold nib has. Right. Right. Right. And a steel nib in a lot of circumstances can actually look nicer than a titanium nib as well.

Brad Dowdy: Absolutely. And just to give people who are considering fountain pens for the first time, I'm going to give you just a ballpark price just to have in your head. And when we're talking about this for just a nib, let's say a steel nib would be $20, a titanium nib would be $50 and a gold nib would be $120. Right. That's just, just to give you a picture in your head of kind of what we're talking about just for a strict nib price. You know, there's obviously a million different things that can go into those costs and change those costs drastically, but just to give you a ballpark of, and something to work with when we're talking about pricing for those.

Myke Hurley: Yep. Because you also, you know, as well as the actual nib and what it's made of, there are lots of different quality aspects to consider about how they're made and customized and that kind of stuff.

Brad Dowdy: Yep. Yep. Now, if the materials weren't confusing enough, nib sizing can get very confusing because not all medium-sized nibs write the same. Mm-hmm. So, there's a thing in our industry where there's two groups of nib sizes and they're measured on a different baseline.

Brad Dowdy: European fountain pen nibs are probably what most people are introduced to first, what most people's fountain pen is sized with, and what most people's first fountain pen experience is. So, let's just say they range from an extra fine nib, which would be the finest line. Then they'll have a fine nib, a medium nib, and a broad nib for their line width grades of writing. Okay? So, your extra fine would be the finest line up to your broad would be the widest and wettest line. So, there's a difference in how the ink flows too. Japanese nibs will have the same extra fine, fine, medium, and broad, but every single one of them will write a finer line than their European counterparts. Mm-hmm. So, you have to know this if you want a medium line and you're used to, say, a brand called Lamy, which we'll talk about all these brands later, and you've used Lamy's medium nib, and you like a brand called Pilot, which is made in Japan, and you go to buy a Pilot medium nib, that line's going to write about half the width of your Lamy line. So, that's something you have to be aware of if you're buying a Japanese nib manufactured by a Japanese manufacturer, or, you know, in the case of Lamy, a German nib made in Europe. Those things are different. And that's one of the questions we'll get to this day of what nib should... I like to write like this, what nib is the best for me? That's a super common question that we get. So, it's a matter of trial and error and testing, and unfortunately, not all nib sizes are created equally. Mm-hmm.

Myke Hurley: The nib itself rests in what is known as the grip section, and the name of this section of the pen is pretty self-explanatory. It's the place that you hold.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, and we mention that because there are a lot of different things that go into a grip section. They can be straight, they can be tapered, they can be concave, they can be molded. In the case of Lamy, there's a ridge in the middle that will help you, theoretically, have a better grip on the pen to give you better penmanship. So, there's all kinds of different considerations that go into the grip itself, just from a shape and comfort perspective, right? It's depending on, again, this goes back to the most custom writing experience you can get is with a fountain pen, and right down to where you're holding the pen is going to feel different from person to person based on their grip. For example, I'm right-handed. I write with a traditional, what's called a tripod grip, like any, it's a pretty normal basic grip. Myke is left-handed. He would feel, his fingers would feel the same grip that I'm using in the same pen differently than I do, and is it comfortable for him? So, these are things you have to consider when you're making fountain pen purchases.

Myke Hurley: Yep, because there are many pens that, this differs for me and Brad. I'm what's known as an overhooker. So, I kind of hold the pen, I kind of circle my arm around the page, and the pen kind of faces back down towards me, which is a very peculiar thing, but it's a pretty standard left-handed grip. And so, yeah, but it results in a very, very different experience for the two of us from exactly the same pen. And this can come down to not just the grip section, but the performance of a nib,

Myke Hurley: and also it also helps equate to somebody's own preferences as to what they enjoy as well.

Brad Dowdy: Yep.

Filling Systems

Myke Hurley: All right, so there are filling systems. So, every fountain pen, so you will probably be aware that a fountain pen requires ink, right? I think people know that. It's a pretty standard thing that people are aware of. And there are two broad ideas, like two major ideas as to how you get ink in a fountain pen, and then one of them has lots of offshoots to it. The two basic ideas are, do you put a cartridge in it? So, like a typically little plastic thing that you buy from a pen company that's already filled with ink, and you buy like a box of them, and then you just refill them whenever it runs out, right? So, you're just refilling it. That is a cartridge. Nice and simple. That's typically, again, how most people will experience their first fountain pens in most instances, because it is the easiest, the least messy way to deal with a fountain pen. But then, it's also the least fun. The most fun is to refill it, to have ink from a bottle, typically, that you are going to refill your pen from. But then when you get into the ink refilling world, there are then a bunch of different filling systems that you may come across.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, so, like Myke said, cartridge is the basic. If you're starting, and you're just buying the most entry-level fountain pen, it's probably going to come in a package with a single-inch ink cartridge. You unscrew where the grip section meets the barrel, you take that cartridge out of the packaging, and you pop it right into the pen, screw the barrel back together, and start writing. So, that's your basic filling system. Everything else is going to require a bottle of ink. So, the converter essentially looks like a glorified cartridge with a little twist mechanism on the back, to where you unscrew the barrel, you put in the converter just as you would the cartridge, but it's empty. So, you twist this little knob, and the piston filler goes down, and you dip the front end of your pen, you know, where the nib is, and the grip section starts, into a bottle of ink, and then you twist it back, pulling the ink up into the converter. That's how people are getting all of these cool colors in their fountain pens that are not available in cartridges, right? That's the limitation that Myke was mentioning with cartridges. You know, you can get some wild, cool-color cartridges, but some of them are also specific to brands, and that's a whole, you know, that's the 201 level. We'll get to that. But for the basics, the converter just helps draw ink into the pen from the bottle. The advanced version of a converter is when it's actually built into the pen, and that's called a piston filler. It's, you know, expanding on the converter design to where the mechanics are actually physically built into the pen, where you're just screwing the back end of the pen barrel has the twist mechanism built in it, and the piston is built into the pen barrel, and it moves up and down the barrel as you're filling, and that's kind of considered, I don't know, one of the best filling mechanisms, right? Some people will only buy piston mechanisms. You know, it's, as you can imagine, it can be much more costly, much more expensive than filling, than using a cartridge or a converter. There is a cost consideration when you're talking about a piston filler. Same with a vacuum-type filler. It's similar to a piston, but it's more of a plunging mechanism. You unscrew it from the back, and then you kind of snap down the piston rod that is in there, and it sucks up the ink in a more aggressive fashion than a piston. This is a very interesting conversation, Myke.

Brad Dowdy: Once you get into more advanced levels of fountain pens, people will use what's called an eyedropper filling, and it's not even a mechanism. It's really when you have a certain barrel type that is sealed off by silicone grease, and you just fill the barrel in its entirety with ink. So it's the highest capacity. This is the most advanced.

Myke Hurley: This really is, like, you've got to feel very comfortable with yourself, and your ability is to pull this off, I think, because it is also the most prone to make a huge mess.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, and it's really an old type of mechanism, old type of filling that, you know, was probably around late 1800s, definitely early 1900s. This type of eyedropper filling system was in vogue at the time, and it kind of went away because it can be very messy, and at the time, you know, the consistencies built in fountain pens weren't as great as they are now from a manufacturing perspective. So eyedroppers give you basically the largest ink capacity, and for some people that's a very important consideration. So that is a lot of your consideration in the filling system is, one, you know, do I want to use an ink that's not available in a cartridge? And then number two, how much of that ink do I want to put into the pen? So a converter, it's going to be a smaller capacity than a piston filler, which is going to be smaller capacity than an eyedrop-filled fountain pen in general terms.

Myke Hurley: What else? Do we want to talk anything more on fountain pens today?

Brad Dowdy: I think we want to clean them, Myke. I know you're not interested in this, really.

Myke Hurley: That's a good point. I'm not interested in it. I just don't do it as much as you do.

Brad Dowdy: So cleaning your fountain pens is important. You don't have to overly obsess about it. What I always say about fountain pen cleaning is you have to be considerate of when your pen needs cleaning, right? So this is clearly the highest maintenance form of pen writing that you're going to do above, you know, your ballpoints, rollerballs, and gel ink pens. There is maintenance involved. And I think that's more, that's the biggest roadblock for people testing fountain pens.

Myke Hurley: Yeah, it's more than just refilling them, right? You do occasionally, if you want to maintain the life of your pen, you do have to clean it as well. You have to give it some tender love and care.

Brad Dowdy: Right. It is not difficult to clean a fountain pen just for your basic use. All you have to do is unscrew the barrel, you know, hold the nib section in one hand, remove the cartridge or converter, and run it underwater until it runs clear, right? If you have a blue ink in it, when it's no longer running blue. So you can shake out the nib, you know, in a paper towel. You just want to have some idea of how to clean a fountain pen, because what happens is the nib and the feed will tend to get dry. That's the exposed part of the fountain pen. And so where that liquid is, it will tend to dry up a little bit over time. And that will cause the ink flow not to flow as well. So it just won't be as nice of a writing experience. But if you clean it, it's like getting a brand new pen again. I use a couple of tools aside from just running the fountain pen nibs and grip section under the water. I use, oddly enough, a nasal aspirator, which is a little syringe bulb that you use. And it just pressure pushes water through the nib. And it just cleans it out faster and more forcefully. And I find that to be well worth any investment. Even if you only have one fountain pen and one bottle of ink, spending $1.50 on a nasal aspirator to shoot water through the nib when it's time to clean it is worth every penny. And will just make your writing experience more enjoyable. You can also use blunt nose syringes to kind of shoot water into a pen. Sometimes that's good for piston fillers, right? Because you'll clean out the nib section. And then you still have like a barrel that, you know, you normally can just run water through the piston, just fill it back and forth. But a syringe, you can kind of pop in there and pressure wash it a little bit, if you will. And then there are ultrasonic cleaners, which is a really, that's your advanced move. They're not necessary unless you're a very avid fountain pen cleaner into vintage pens that need extensive cleaning. It's not something you should really consider buying if you're a beginner. But I wanted to mention it because it does come up enough to where people ask about, do I need an ultrasonic cleaner to clean a fountain pen? Well, the answer is no. But there are extreme situations where people who have extensive pen collections do find them useful.

Myke Hurley: Did we do it?

Brad Dowdy: We did it.

Myke Hurley: We did it. We got through it. That's fountain pens. Oof. Now, we want to talk about a couple of other things to round out today's episode, like some brands that we love and also some things that come up frequently on the show as well. Before we do, let me thank our second sponsor of this episode, and that is ExpressVPN. I think it is fair to say that we all want to browse the internet without the rest of the world knowing what we're doing. We all know about incognito windows. But did you know that even in incognito mode, your online activity could actually still be traced? Even if you clear your browsing history, your internet service provider could see every single website you've ever visited, and that's why you want ExpressVPN. They make sure that your ISP or anybody else can't see what sites you're visiting. Instead, your internet connection is rerouted through secure servers that ExpressVPN are offering to you. They're looking after them. Each server has an IP address that's shared among thousands of users, which means that everything that you do is anonymized and can't be traced back to you. It also encrypts 100% of your data with the best-in-class encryption, so your information is always protected even when you're using public Wi-Fi, like at a cafe or a hotel. That's where I use ExpressVPN the most is when I'm traveling. But the thing is, and the thing is great about this, it's not just like if you're up to something you shouldn't be, right? It's not what we're talking about here, but you deserve privacy in your life, right? Like we're humans. We're in this modern world. People deserve privacy. That's something that is like a fundamental human right, and so you can get that for yourself with ExpressVPN. It is rated the number one by TechRadar, Wired, The Verge, and more, and you can use the internet in confidence from your computer, tablet, or smartphone. Just tap one button and you are protected. Protect yourself online today and protect your online activity as well. Find out more about how you can get three months for free at expressvpn.com. That's expressvpn.com for three months free. If we're on your package, I'll give you that URL one more time. expressvpn.com. Thanks to ExpressVPN for their support of this show and RelayFM.

Brad Dowdy: All right, this next section, Myke, I included it just to talk about some of the brands that come up repeatedly in our first 399 episodes. Now, we're just going to give a little bit of highlight, a little bit of commentary on a few of these brands. This won't take too long, but I want to tell all of our old-time listeners, I promise I left your favorite brand off this list.

Myke Hurley: Yes, we did it purposefully to annoy you. So we'll start, we'll break these down, some of these brands into, like the pen brands, we'll break down geographically, and then we'll talk about some popular paper and ink brands. And we don't say these are the best, we don't say they're necessarily our favorites, but they are companies that come up a lot on the show and we think are important to know about. So in Europe, we have Pelican.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, so Pelican is one of the biggest pen companies in the world. They are, for me, one of the pen companies that I measure other things against because they're really good at what they do. For example, in the fountain pen world, they have what I think is the best piston filler. For a lot of people, they have what's considered the best nibs. And they are just a classic design that is just world-renowned and well-respected. Aurora. Aurora gets into the Italian market and there's, I also have, we'll include Montegrappa in that as well. They both make very Italian pens. They can sometimes be like very loud, very unique materials. In the case of Montegrappa, very unique designs. And they're companies that as a pen addict, I watch a lot for what they're creating because they do a lot of interesting things. They may not always be for you. You know, just like Visconti is another brand there as well. They're all on the expensive side, these ones as well. These are all very pricey pens in general. They have lower end pens, but their forte is in, you know, the expensive mid-range to very expensive types of pens. On the opposite end of the ledger is another German brand called Lamy. We talk about Lamy a lot because they do very interesting things at a more normal price point for the vast majority of us and our listeners. And they have been around for a long time. They make really unique designs that have withstood the test of time. The Lamy 2000 is one of the most famous fountain pens ever made. The Lamy Safari is right up there with it, I would argue.

Myke Hurley: You've probably seen the Lamy Safari in your stationery store.

Brad Dowdy: Yes. It's a very common, very easy, very accessible pen. The last one in the European section is Mont Blanc, which I mentioned them because even though they're not talked about in this show a lot, in the public fountain pen space, they are talked about often with reverence. And there's good reason for that. It is a luxury brand, so they're very expensive. But a lot of people's first fountain pen is a gift. And a lot of times it's a Mont Blanc. It was mine. Yeah. And people want to know about that brand. So it is a brand that comes up from time to time. I'm into Mont Blanc inks. They are a very, very good ink maker. I have one or two Mont Blanc pens. It's not a very common thing for me, but they do come up a lot. And it's a very, very good pen company.

Myke Hurley: They make some really beautiful stuff. And every now and then, both of us lost over a Mont Blanc product of some description. Absolutely. But they are, when looking at our overall market, they're overpriced compared to a lot of their competitors. Right.

Brad Dowdy: That's another reason why, in the canon of the Pen Addict podcast, we'll discuss them as they relate to other similar brands.

Myke Hurley: Because they don't necessarily do a lot of stuff that other companies don't do for cheaper. But they are, and I get it, that's fashion. You're paying more for the Mont Blanc brand, which is, in certain circles, very important.

Brad Dowdy: Yes. Yes. Yes. The USA market, you'll notice when I list off a few of these companies, that is a very different type of list than the European market. The European market has very historical brands. In the U.S., we could talk about Parker's and Estabrooks and Cross and other things that were founded in the U.S., but those pens don't really rank in our world right now. They're good pens. They're perfectly fine. But they're not as interesting as some of the other brands we have in the U.S.A. This is more of a maker's list, wouldn't you say? I would, yeah.

Myke Hurley: I mean, Estabrook are back. Sure. They were gone for a while and were kind of just vintage only, but that brand has seen a resurgence. But especially the brands that we talk about on this show the most, that are American, tend to have seen their life born on Kickstarter.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, Franklin Kristoff is the exception to that, and I guess Edison is too. Franklin Kristoff has been around for a while. Edison and Carolina Pen Company, all three of those brands make beautiful acrylic pens. They are pushing the envelope on pen design and what can be made with, you know, CNC machines and interesting materials and different things like that, that really kind of, they really lean into the customization of what a fountain pen can be, I believe. And then I also included Karas Customs on here. They weren't the first ones to make metal pens, but they kind of took off in that market, and there's been a bunch of other companies that have come since then.

Myke Hurley: They were one of the real early successes.

Brad Dowdy: They are one of the early Kickstarter successes, too. That was actually a Kickstarter success in that they've made a business model out of making unique metal pens and out of different materials. So I think it's, the USA market is definitely more of a maker space than a historical market, like the next one we have coming up.

Myke Hurley: Japan. Japan. This is where the real history is, baby.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, well, the German companies are older, right? You know, they have some time, they have some years on them, but Japan will often refer to as the big three manufacturers in Japan, which is Pilot, Platinum, and Sailor. They all have 100 plus years behind them in manufacturing, manufacturing every part of their pens head to toe, and have really high quality, great standards. Japan is still to this day one of the stationary capitals of the world, and they just make really high quality goods. I've also included Nakaya in this list, which is an offshoot of Platinum. It's essentially Platinum's luxury brand lineup, where you get a lot of handmade pens, and it comes up a lot in this show, because I have a fascination with them as a brand and as a writing instrument, and it's one of my favorite brands.

Myke Hurley: Well, we both do. I just don't own one yet.

Brad Dowdy: Yes, yes, yes. One of these years.

Myke Hurley: Yeah. I've definitely come around to Platinum, because I was kind of a Platinum hold-off for a bit. So, I believe in Nakaya is again back in my future. Gotcha.

Brad Dowdy: Gotcha. And like I said, we're listing these, because these are a lot of the brands you're going to hear the most. If you start today listening to The Pit Addict with this episode, and you start to dig into the back episodes, all the brands we're mentioning now are just the repeating themes that you'll hear. So, hopefully, this gives you a good baseline of what we're talking about.

Myke Hurley: I mean, saying that, when we look at paper, two companies we've already mentioned a couple of times in this episode, Rodia and Leuchtturm. Leuchtturm 1917 is the actual full name of the brand. These are the best products that you're going to be able to replace your Moleskine with.

Brad Dowdy: Correct. Correct. And then we also talk about a product called Tomoe River Paper, which isn't necessarily a brand, but more of a paper that other printers use, such as Hobonichi, which we refer to a lot. That's one of the best calendar agenda planner companies out there. And they use a paper called Tomoe River Paper, which is very fountain pen friendly. It's a very unique design. So, they come up a lot during the show, as do Midori and the Traveler's Notebook system. So, these are hugely stationary friendly notebooks, Midori and Traveler's. You'll see them just all over Instagram, all over different blogs and things like that. So, you know, the paper goods list could be, could take up this entire show if we named off all the brands. You know, like my good friend Chad Donut at Donut Paper makes a wonderful paper. And like we could go on and on and on about all the awesome paper makers, write and story supply and things like that. You know, maybe that's a future paper only episode where we explore all the paper goods. But these are the brands you'll hear coming up a lot in our talks.

Myke Hurley: And then we have inks as well.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. So, I made this little category as inks, as ink only, right? These are companies that generally just make ink, not pens. So, Robert Oster is one of my favorite ink makers out of Australia. Diamine out of the UK. Ackermann out of the Netherlands. Noodlers out of the US. Bungu Box, who makes in collaboration with Sailor out of Japan. And I think probably those brands are kind of, ink is kind of like paper where we could make this list and it would be infinitely long, right? It would just keep going and going and going. But as far as the conversation around these brands in the podcast, these are the ones that come up the most because they're good. Like, we talk about these products because they make interesting products and they've proven over time to be of a good quality. So, that's why these names make these very short lists is for those very, very good reasons, I think.

Myke Hurley: Yeah. Bungu Box are probably the outlier there because they make customized pens, but ink is their business. And I also wanted to just make sure that we mentioned them because we do talk about them an awful lot on the show.

Brad Dowdy: Correct. And that's how we got it started talking about them was the ink in the beginning. Yep. So, that does come up a lot. All right, Myke, you ready for some fun?

Myke Hurley: There are some themes and memes that occur on this show. There are pens and companies that we will refer to very frequently. Sometimes seriously, sometimes as jokes. And it's probably worth knowing at least a handful of these frequently referred to terms. So, we will start with three famous Kickstarters. Two infamous, I would say, and one famous. The two infamous Kickstarters. One is called The Visionaire.

Brad Dowdy: Oh, Myke. So, we don't have time to go into all the history of all these projects. These are basically individual episodes themselves if we ever decide to recap all the drama that went on with these various projects. But The Visionaire was a pen that came out at a very strange time on Kickstarter where the pen Kickstarter was a thing. And fountain pens were starting to become popular on Kickstarter. And then this project appeared out of the blue from no one had any knowledge of before. Which is okay. That's kind of what Kickstarter is for. But the problem with The Visionaire is it was this very basic looking pen. And they were charging a very reasonable price. I think it was less than $40 if memory serves. And by the time we got note of it, it had already crossed like $100,000 or $200,000. It went all the way up over $300,000. And it was very quickly realized by anyone who knew anything about fountain pens that this person had no idea what they were doing. So we found the pen was just a basic generic pen that they were essentially buying off of one of the Asian marketplaces like Alibaba or Rakuten or whatever. Their product videos were shown filling the pen with India ink, which is not compatible with fountain pens. It will not flow correctly. And then the marketing around it has prompted one of the most famous phrases or common sayings that we use in pen attic history is this pen was important enough to sign your wedding certificate with or your birth certificate with. Right. So I got in touch at the time with the creator and we started talking because I was questioning like everything about this project. And so there's several podcasts. The first one we'll link is episode 64 where we first mentioned The Visionaire. And then there's several subsequent podcasts where I've talked to the creator of the project, trying to understand what's going on. And in the end, Myke took one for the team and backed The Visionaire. So why don't you talk about the pen itself real quick?

Myke Hurley: I mean, I have nothing to say. It's the most basic fountain pen.

Brad Dowdy: It's a $2 fountain pen.

Kickstarter Scams

Myke Hurley: A scam it was not. But it was, you know, like there are scams on Kickstarter, as many scams. Oh, we're getting to that one. We're going to talk about the most scammy scam of all time in a second. But The Visionaire was just a very, very basic product. Very, very well marketed.

Brad Dowdy: Yes. So when you hear us mention, would you sign your child's birth certificate with that? It's referring back to this whole Visionaire debacle that really, I mean, just lined the creator's pockets with basically a resale of a fountain pen. So it was a travesty. But it wasn't a scam, Myke. This next one was a scam.

Myke Hurley: The scribble pen. Pen. This was a pen. It exploded onto the internet because the video is so good. Because what it promised is you could touch a sensor on the end of the pen onto any surface. It would replicate the color. And you could start drawing with that color. That there was like an ink mixing mechanism inside of the pen. It could mix the inks together for you. And you could start writing. And believe it or not, this was a pen basically the size of a dry erase marker. Absolute 100% fakery. We spent a lot of time on the show. Because this pen kept coming back as well, which is one of the funny things about it. It would launch onto different crowdfunding platforms. It would launch under different names. One of my very favorite things about the Kickstarter platform is that all of this stuff remains. So I will have links in the show notes. You can go and look at the page even though they canceled the funding because it exploded into... And I really do think that we were partly responsible in exposing this product for what it was. Because it became very bloggy. Very blog-worthy to show this thing. Right.

Brad Dowdy: I was involved in a lot of articles around discussing this and the Visionaire before that.

Myke Hurley: But this one was like... And we took a real stand on this pen because we knew it was physically impossible to produce. Right? That it could not be made in the guise that they were showing it. But this pen kept coming back and the story kept getting weirder and weirder over time. But this was one that is just fake. But you can go and watch the video and it's still fun to see today. But there is just no world in which this pen could be made right now.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. I did get threatened with a lawsuit on this one that I posted on the blog. So it was just... It continues to exist. This is a very much what is dead will never die thing. I mean we're years and years on and they continue to take people's money for pre-orders and never deliver anything. And I'm just shocked at the people who continue to believe that this product exists and will actually work as intended. And they keep changing what it is. Now it's practically down to it's a color picker with an app type of thing now. But man, what a mess that project was at the time. All of the product imagery was photoshopped. It was just fake from head to toe. Yeah.

Myke Hurley: And it was super fun over time to break down those videos frame by frame. Yeah. And work out exactly what they were doing to fake them.

Chaos Pen

Brad Dowdy: Good times. The scribble pen. That one continues to live in infamy. The next one was infamous for a while and now has just become famous. It's the CWNT pen type A, which was a pen that I fully supported and fully, you know, loved and everything. But it turned into one of the biggest Kickstarter stories ever just because of the catastrophe that the manufacturing process became. And then which led into like all kinds of bad things happening and all kinds of, I guess, product theft and idea theft and things like that. And in the end, like we all got our pens and it all shook out fine. But it was one of the craziest, wildest rides I've ever had on any Kickstarter project. And in the beginning and in the end, like I became friends with Sewe and Taylor, who are CWNT. And to this day, I continue to be friends with them and support all their projects. But at the time, this was like their first big Kickstarter and it just ran amok. And talk about articles written about it. There's articles about this, like on big, you know, websites and blogs or just about how like the madness of producing a Kickstarter project and all the things that can go wrong. And in the end, they came out better for it in the end. But man, that's that was a crazy project. And it continues to come up to this day. And CWT does because they've they've made some really interesting products since then. But it's worth mentioning the pen type A if you're into this type of thing and want to research it. But we actually mentioned this, Myke. I had to go back and look it up. I was shocked when I saw this. We mentioned the pen type A in episode number two. I couldn't believe that when I looked it up.

Myke Hurley: Yeah, that's wild.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah. Speaking of wild, another recurring theme. We're off the Kickstarters now and we're just into some common themes that we talked about. Do you want to describe this?

Myke Hurley: The Chaos Pen is a collaboration between Montegrappa and Sylvester Stallone. Montegrappa are known for making some very, very, very expensive tens of thousands of dollars worth of expensive pens that are themed in some way. And the Chaos Pen is one of these. It's not really available anymore, but comes up every now and again, I think. And it just is this pen which is full of snakes and skulls and just wildness. But it's referenced because it's so crazy to see and is also so very, very expensive.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, this is the first pen, wild pen, that I recall getting press outside of our normal sphere. And it was really because of the marketing of the pen with Sylvester Stallone being an internationally famous actor. Past his prime and just doing this really. I think there was a watch component to it. I think there was a full brand thing going on with it. But this pen has lived on throughout. I think about every year, a new media outlet would discover the pen. And we'd get a new influx of articles about the Chaos Pen, right? And then we'd end up discussing it. And then one day, Myke and I got to see this pen in person. And I think our opinions changed fully about this pen.

Myke Hurley: Yeah, we turned on it. It was like, I don't know, a notice isn't for me, but I can totally see how it's for someone. Yep. Because it was just quite a sight to behold. It's incredibly well made, as it should be for its price. But it's easy to laugh at it because it is so absurd. And then when you see it and you hold it, it's like, oh, okay. Yeah, it's like, I get it.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, I get it now. But that was really a marketing story more than anything, which is proven by its reemergence every year or two by someone discovering, oh my gosh, what happened back then?

Brad Dowdy: Speaking of marketing, I got to say, Myke, we were the leaders of the Bullet Journal train. I'm just going to go ahead and take that now. I mean, I know Ryder, Carol, invented it. But we were on the Bullet Journal bandwagon way back in the day before it became hashtag Bujo, right? Yes.

Myke Hurley: Basically, like the Bullet Journal, the idea of the Bullet Journal, the original website that was created, where it was just the system that Ryder had made. It made waves in our community and also the tech community, which we both kind of straddle because it was a really beautiful website.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, the productivity community as a whole.

Myke Hurley: So we interviewed Ryder in like 2013. We had him on the show and then had him back when he launched a Kickstarter campaign to create a book. And now like Bullet Journal. We had him back a third time. When he released his book about it, right? And these are three episodes that are super interesting because you get to hear someone who's going through this change, this transition. You know, Ryder like had an idea, thought it was interesting to, wow, this is starting to catch on. And now I want to try and make a career out of this idea that I created because people seem so excited about it to the point where this has exploded and expanded way past me to the point that I've had to now like legally claim ownership of my idea again. And I don't endorse any of what's happening. I have, but I have my thing, which is the core part. And it's super intriguing to watch him kind of go through this. And it is one of these like successes that we do claim a little bit of, you know, Ryder has said himself that like we really did help get the word out for Bullet Journaling when it began.

Brad Dowdy: So we also told him which notebook to use.

Myke Hurley: We did. Yes. We told him.

Brad Dowdy: So he has a partnership with Lloyd's term now that has turned out hopefully pretty well. But yeah, I like I'm like I'm joking about taking credit. But I think Ryder is one of the more interesting characters we've had on the show repeatedly just because of exactly what you said. Listen to the three episodes that we did. If you're a Bullet Journal fan. And I think it tells a good story just like Myke was alluding to. And again, I just I think what he's done is pretty amazing. And I just find it so interesting. Like it's still like I could go back and listen to those episodes today.

Myke Hurley: And then lastly, two companies that are referenced a lot because both me and Brad care about them greatly. And we've formed collections over the years of Field Notes and Retro 51.

Brad Dowdy: Yeah, they both started really early. I think Retro 51 might have been mentioned before Field Notes. I think you were early to the Retro 51 game just as, hey, this is a really good pen and I like this pen. And what does it do different? Well, it's recommended from you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And but I'm just saying like that surprised me when I was looking back at some of the episodes. I thought Field Notes would have been just like the thing from the beginning. But they both kind of do the same thing, right? So even though Field Notes has a subscription and Retro 51 doesn't, they both do something. They both do what they do very well. They have great marketing. They have great products, which they wouldn't be in business if they didn't have great products. And they were able to tell stories that we were able to latch on to, you know, whether it's a specific Field Note limited edition release or a specific pattern or, you know, design on a Retro 51. And they did it well and they did it frequently enough to where they became full time topics on our show, sometimes multiple episodes in a row. So they've certainly become popular enough that I would get emails saying you talk about them too much. And like, I'm okay with that. It's because they're doing interesting things and we like the we like the product. So you will hear if this is your first Pen Addict podcast. And if you go back and listen to the previous 399, you're going to hear Field Notes and Retro 51 talk a lot. And that's not going to stop either.

Myke Hurley: Well, there's going to be less Retro 51 talk.

Brad Dowdy: Well, I guess that one's closing down. Technically, that one's going to stop, but not this year. It's not going to stop us from talking about them, right? That is it. All right. So that is going to stop us from talking today.

Myke Hurley: Yeah. We have completed the Pen Addict 101. The next episode, episode 401 of this show is going to be Pen Addict 201, where we get into more detail on some pretty important elements that you may want to also consume. So we're going to make this a two-parter. Because when we started putting this together, we asked for our audience, our wonderful Pen Addict audience, for some things that they think we should talk about. And we could not get to them all in one episode. This is already one of the longer episodes of this podcast. We feel like we maybe should split it up. So that is your introduction. Thank you for, if you are, if this is new for you, the Pen Addict, thank you so much for choosing to listen to this show. And we hope that you enjoy any future episodes that you consume. But there are also, you know, a lot of people that are listening to this today. The majority of people that will probably ever listen to this episode are people that have already been listening to the show for a long period of time. Many people from the beginning. Many people from very early on. Thank you, thank you, always. You know, we say it all the time, especially as we cross each 50-episode barrier. But this, you know, this show is such a joy to put together. And we can only do it because you listen. So thank you for supporting this show over its lifetime. Thank you for supporting our sponsors. Thank you for buying all the products that we make. Thank you for supporting our Kickstarter campaigns. We couldn't do this without you. If there was nobody listening, there wouldn't be a podcast to make. So we, you know, this community is one of the greatest communities I've ever had the pleasure of being a part of. And I've been a part of many communities over my podcasting career because I span so many different interests. This is so kind, so giving, so wonderful and so thankful, this community. And it's an absolute pleasure to be a part of. But I will always thank at this moment Brad Dowdy. Brad puts in an absolutely immense amount of work into this show, including this episode. Most of the time, I'm just showing up and I'm talking with him and then I edit and post it. Brad's the one who's like moving this show forward always. And, you know, I couldn't do this without you. Plus, there would be no pen addict without the pen addict himself. So as we are finishing our 400th episode, thank you, Brad Dowdy.

Brad Dowdy: Well, thank you, Myke. I am glad that Myke does all the editing and all the posting and all the back end work because I hate all that stuff. So thank you, buddy, for doing for you putting in. I'm putting in the the production work. You're putting in the the technology technological work on the back end to make this show exist to all of our amazing listeners. And it really is about the community we've built around all the things that we do. And we wouldn't be here without all of y'all listening and everything that Myke said. I second it all completely. So thanks to all of you and especially thanks to Myke for being a wonderful friend for all of these years. And I know we have a lot more years in front of us.

Myke Hurley: We most certainly do. So that is episode 400. If you're listening to this in real time, keep an eye out for our Kickstarter campaign. We're days away from launching the Kickstarter campaign for the 2020 pen show circuit. So keep your eye out for that. We'll be back next time. Thank you so much to Warby Parker and ExpressVPN for the support of this show. Say goodbye, Brad. Goodbye, Brad.