Editing The Pen Addict 516/transcript

{{Infobox podcast transcript
| name            = The Pen Addict
| number          = 516
| title           = A Selection of Odd Recordings
| date            = June 1st, 2022
| hosts           = [[Brad Dowdy]]<br>
[[Myke Hurley]]
| guests          = 
| link            = [https://www.relay.fm/penaddict/516 Episode 516]
| audiolink       = [https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.libsyn.com/secure/thepenaddict/The_Pen_Addict_516.mp3 Audio Episode 516]
| length          = 53
}}

'''Myke:''' From Relay FM, this is The Pen Addict, episode 516. Today's show is brought to you by Pen Chalet. My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Brow Daddy. Brow Daddy.

'''Myke:''' Brow Daddy. Brow Daddy. Brow Daddy. Dando. The middle word in pens. Hey Brow Daddy. Brow Daddy. Brow Daddy. Nice to speak to you today.

'''Brad:''' Average on a good day. Hi Myke. How are you? This is how this episode is going to go today. Yeah. We have questions Myke. Or I should say we have answers allegedly because our listeners have questions in the form of hashtag Ask TPA which I'll admit this publicly Myke we have been doing a poor job of getting to. Poor job. Each week. I will take the fall for that. I'll be the fall guy because we've just had so much other fun stuff to talk about and we tend to kind of put the Ask TPA at the end. Maybe we should start leaving, leading every show with Ask TPA. At least one question so we don't find ourselves in these binds. I do too. We'll work it out. It's the right workflow but that means sometimes we've got to catch them all up.

'''Myke:''' I'll tell you the real problem here. The real problem is we have had a selection of our CPA that are really long. They're like long emails which we like. Which are good. But usually we don't have enough time.

'''Brad:''' Yeah. An hour into the show we skip the long ones. We get the short ones.

'''Myke:''' Today we're going to get through as many of them as we can because we are coming to you from the past. This is a pre-recorded episode as part of a selection of odd recordings that will occur throughout the month of June because me and Brad are a couple of busy boys. This first question comes from Stephen who says, do you have any recommendations for pens that take space pen refills? I love the refill and what it does but not the space pen itself and have lost a couple. Something bigger would be nice. Okay.



== Space Pen Discussion ==


'''Brad:''' Okay. Okay. So the bigger space pen kind of defies a little bit of the logic behind the space pen in the way that not in the way that it should be but in the way that people design for space pen refill pens. The good thing is the Fisher space pen will fit into any Parker size compatible refill pen. So the Parker refills are kind of the one of the most popular refill choices for pen makers to create pens around.

'''Myke:''' And this is a pen size, right? Like the pen refill size is called the Parker size. It's not necessarily Parker pens which is a whole other thing. Correct.

'''Brad:''' Correct. Not to be confusing at all. Yeah. So I'm going to tell Stephen specifically what I use but then we'll talk about a few other things. So for the larger space pen refills, I tend to go for the smaller ones, right? I like the traditional space pen refill barrel. I like the spoke roadie can take the Parker size refills. You know, that type of pen pocket pen can use those Parker style refills.

'''Myke:''' And what a great pen it is. Brad Dowdy, could you tell us some of the special features and benefits of the spoke roadie?

'''Brad:''' Um, I have a Joy Division one that you can't have. I saw that and I wanted it and it made me think, is it possible for me to ask you for something? Brian gets mad every time I post that but I can't help myself. Um, so what I, I do use a specific pen barrel for a larger space pen and that's the County Comm Embassy pen. I bet I've had this thing a decade. Um, they're still available, I think. Um, I have an aluminum one. They also make titanium ones but it is a full size. Kind of, you know, EDC slash tactical looking barrel that has a screw cap and a clip. It's not retractable. Um, it takes, you know, takes the space pen refills. And this is the pen that I leave in my travel bag because I don't have to worry about it, right? And then I also don't, it has a clip on the, on the cap so I can just clip it in the bag and know I'm not going to lose it. And then I also know that I have the Fisher Space Pen refill in it. By the way, I use the fine blue refill at like $5 a pop. I still just, it's the best space pen refill. Um, because I, I like Steven. I do like the refills. Um, so yeah, I use the County Comm Embassy pen for my larger space pen refill. But like you are really open to choice here. Um, there's a, a ton of different pens that we could, like I could point you to like anything by tactile turn, you know, but those, those bigger pens that will fit the space pen, you know, the big eye design pens, bigger pens that'll fit the space pen refill. You actually have more choice than you think. What you're looking for is Parker, uh, refill compatibility when you're talking about, um, buying a different pen barrel for the space pen.

'''Myke:''' With the quote unquote Kickstarter pens, take this, I have an, at least have an option to take this kind of refill.

'''Brad:''' And a special note here, the space pen refill ships with an extender that you have to use. So you want to keep that in the refill pack when you're swapping it out. Because for example, like the shown design pocket pen, it was built, the original shown design pen pen was built around the Fisher space pen minus the extension. So it's not hot swappable with the Parker pen, right? So there's this, uh, additional piece you need to keep. You'll see it. It's, it's very obvious when you buy a refill, it's this white kind of twisty looking piece that goes on the back. That, that is the Parker compatibility piece that you need. Otherwise you have to find one that is designed for the shorter space pen refill. Um, as long as you buy a refill of like a fresh refill and it comes with that piece, it'll fit in any Parker compatible pen. So that's just something to keep in mind.

'''Myke:''' All right. Next question comes from Diane. I've been mulling over wanting a Leonardo Memento Zero Grande. That's right. It's Grande. Yeah. Grande. Yes. But not knowing which one to get. I also wanted the Jonathan Brooks pen and all of his work. Uh, from all of his work, I particularly like the mother of Pearl. I stumbled on this on Instagram one night and ordered it immediately with an elastic fine nib and ruthenium. Uh, so there's, this is a type of a Memento Zero Grande with, uh, the, the material that Diane likes. But what, and I'll put a link in the show notes if you want to see it, but what ink should I get for this pen? I want something that does justice to its dark green, violent, and silver colors. I thought about Je a bon vert Atlantide, which at least is green and silver. However, this is a piston pen. I don't have the wrench to take it apart yet, and I'm leery of putting anything in particular into it. Good call. Maybe I should get over that. I don't know. This is, this is, Myke's adding some thoughts to this to make this more confusing. Its first fill was Pilot Orochizuku Ibisu, a light turquoise. Didn't suit it.

'''Brad:''' So this is probably going to be my favorite email because I know Diane, well, it's a beautiful pen. My God. That Diane sent to me a while ago, and she is going to yell at me for just now getting to this because I think it's, it's already been solved in like subsequent emails, but I kept this in her on purpose because this is a really cool pen that deserves a really specific ink and I have the ink that I would use for it. It's a little less green maybe than Diane's looking for. And it's not as obvious as Sailor Studio 123, but it is in fact Sailor Studio 223, which is a darker purple with a little bit of green in here that I think is kind of the perfect match for this pen. Even though knowing Diane like I do, she has already solved this problem, but I wanted to share this in here because this is an ink pick. Yeah. That's an ink I'm going to get for myself, even though I don't have anything that would match that. It's as specific as the Mother of Pearl Leonardo that Diane has, which is such a unique pen. Like I love that pen that she picked out, right? It's, it's really, really cool.

'''Myke:''' I have this pen suggestion for you that this would look pretty good in. It's the Leonardo Memento Zero Grande.

'''Myke:''' No way. Yeah. It's really good. It looks, it's a good looking pen and it looked good with the sink, you know?

'''Brad:''' So I actually, I think it would match a Brooks material pen that I got at the Atlanta Pen Show. That's kind of what I'm thinking about. But like the last thing I need is more inks, but that's, that's Sailor Ink Studio 223 is actually, at the top of my shopping list for ink. So I'll, I'll get it one day. Like I'm not in a hurry, but yeah, I think that's a good match for that pen because it brings out a little bit more of the subtle purple colors while still having the, the matchiness of like the green and some of the brighter undertones. So yeah, I think that's, that is my choice. And I will wait for Diane to yell at me in my inbox soon.



== Stationery Design Advice ==


'''Myke:''' This comes from Phil. Could you share some lessons learned for people looking to get into stationary design or creation early pitfalls, things to watch out for, et cetera. I've learned a ton from Thoroughly Considered and The Pen Addict, but I'd love to hear some shop talk.

'''Brad:''' Yeah. Yeah. So generics are hard, like to just like give kind of like the, an over one singular overarching thing. But my, one of the things I talk about and it's hard to describe is like, anytime I make a design, I want it to have rules. Right. And what I mean is I want to be able to explain this design to you definitively, not in like a nebulous way. Like, why did you decide to have a clip or to not have a clip? Why does this product, you know, not have a strap on it? You know, why didn't you do this? Why didn't you do that? And I want to have a conviction in my design to be able to answer those questions. Right. And that's not an easy thing to do. Right. But you want to have rules around your design so you can actually get to the end. Right. If you don't have... I agree with you.

'''Myke:''' Doesn't mean you'll get it all right. Right. Because I've been in that situation too. Right. Where like, I have reasons, but people say things and like slight tweaks still give me what I want and give people more of what they want, which is definitely a thing that I've been in before too.

'''Brad:''' I just feel like you'll never complete a project.

'''Myke:''' No.

'''Brad:''' Unless you have rules. And it's hard to think of it that way. It's like, I'm going to make this cool thing. Right. And all of a sudden, now you're trying to make everything for everybody. But at some point, you have to stop. So you have to give yourself these rules when you're making things, in my opinion. I agree with you. I think people will disagree with some of that.

'''Myke:''' I don't. But I believe products... I know you do too. I believe products are best when they have a point of view and they have a particular set of features, benefits, things that make it what it is. It is an opinionated product. Like, they are what I think are the best kinds of products. Now, naturally, what that means is you will never be able to create a mass market product that way. Correct. But I believe that products that are opinionated and they are designed to conviction and they are designed well will find an audience that will champion them. Yep. So like, you could make a more generic product and sell 50,000 of them immediately. Or you could make an opinionated product and sell 10,000 of them a year for the next 20 years. Right. Because their people will keep coming back to that product.

'''Brad:''' Yeah. So a little anecdote back when we started Nock way, way back in the day and telling people or family members who are not into this stuff at all, like telling like essentially an outsider is like, oh, well, this could eventually be in like Walmart and like in the back to school dissection. I'm actually... No, it's designed specifically to not be there. Right. Like, so it's having these like discussions with yourself and when you're making these decisions. And like you said, using the word opinionated like that, like design is opinionated and, you know, figuring out where you want to stand on that design, answering the question spectrum is it'll help you define what type of product you're going to build and hopefully allow you to get to the best conclusion for what you're trying to do.

'''Myke:''' The last, a more practical piece of advice that I'll give, if you're working with manufacturers, like you're working with companies that are helping you bring the product to life, from my own experience now of having worked with manufacturers all over the world, try and manufacture the product locally to you. Mm-hmm. Yep. Like, tomorrow I'm going, as we record this, which will be last week when you hear it, I'm going to a factory in London to look at the first kind of off the press of a new product that we'll work on for Cortex brand. Yep. Now, when I've worked with companies outside of the UK for this, what has to happen is the product gets completed in full and then they send a version to me. And it just doesn't work like that for me. Right. But I can be there when they're first completing it. And so I can say, yes, this is good or no, this is not good. And being able to get an email this morning and they're like, hey, do you want to come down tomorrow? And I can say yes and do that. So far, this has been a vastly better experience than when I've been making products in other countries. Yep. Not that the quality of those products is anything other than stellar. Like, I'm very, very happy with the quality that we've got from the thesis and journal, which is made in Poland right now. But I'm not able to go there and look at something and communicate immediately. There's a big delay between things. And I've really enjoyed the process for our next product that we've been able to make it in London, which is unbelievable by the way that we are actually making is made in London. That's cool. I'm very excited to tell the story of that, how this all kind of came to be and how it works a little bit later on. But it's been a very, very good experience for me so far. Yeah.

'''Brad:''' Because let me tell you, the people you're working with, like in our world, that are, you know, say our printers or something, they have no clue what you're trying to do because they're busy making, you know, office pamphlets and things like that. So being able to have these conversations is helpful.

'''Myke:''' With an asterisk, like this company that I'm working with, I don't know how, but they get it. Good. They typically work on a lot of luxury products. So they don't find it weird when I have like very particular, when they're like, you know, I want to do this thing. It will make the unit price increase, but I just think it will look nice.

'''Brad:''' Yeah. Right.

'''Myke:''' And they're like, okay, like I see that. And they appreciate it. They've been a very good partner so far. Yep. Fingers crossed. Yes. Andrew asks, if Brad was a well-known, if Brad has a well-known fascination with tennis shoes and sneakers, what is Myke's footwear of choice?

'''Brad:''' You want me to answer that? No. I can answer this.

'''Myke:''' No. No, no. I was just wondering if you were going to mention anything about your well-known fascination of tennis shoes and sneakers. I mean, I know you're a big, you're a sneakerhead.

'''Brad:''' Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've kind of wound that down. Like, I'm really happy. I haven't bought like a new pair of like sneakerhead sneakers in, I don't know, a year or two. Maybe. It was kind of like my, it was like my pandemic hobby was sneakerheading. I'm kind of over that now because I don't wear them all. And I have a problem if I buy things to not use. But Myke has exquisite taste in sneakers that he shares a lot of similarities with me. But what is your favorite these days?



== Personal Sneaker Preferences ==


'''Myke:''' There is a pair of sneakers that I have been wearing daily for years, like years. And I adore them. And Adina found some for me because it's a particular design. Mm-hmm. And it was like a one-off. And Adina gifted me some for Christmas. And so it's now got another life from them. But I'll probably get another couple of years out of them. It is the Adidas Pharrell Williams collaboration.

'''Brad:''' Sure.

'''Myke:''' They make a shoe called the Who, H-U. I think it's meant to be a human nature. Human. Yep. Yeah. But these ones are just Hugh. And they're a very soft sneaker, like on the top. They're really, really good. I love them. It's very hard for me to find images of the ones that I have. But I'll put a link in the show notes to the product that exists. Because it's still a product that they make, but they just don't make it in the color way that I have. So eventually, I may switch over to these. Outside of that, these are my everyday trainers, as we call them here in the UK. Okay. I'm also a fan of the Vans. Like the traditional Vans. I don't even know what they're called. Like the traditional one. Not the slip-on. Laces. Laces. With laces. Yeah. And I like... They make a model now, like a bunch of their shoes, that's called Comfy Cush, which they're more cushioned. Because I love Vans, but boy howdy, do they rip my feet apart. Right?

'''Brad:''' They are not an all-day walking around shoe. Traditionally.

'''Myke:''' These ones will do it. Yeah. The Comfy Cush ones will make it work for you. Like they make it work for me. I'm a big fan of this particular one. And then... But the shoes that I wear, I think, the most are actually the shoes I wear in the studio. And I am a Mojave's slipper guy. Okay. For the studio. I find them to be just the right amount of comfort. But then also they've got the little thing you can pull up on the back and you can walk around with them like they're a regular shoe. Yeah. Because I don't like to wear my outside shoes in the studio. So when I get here, I change into these. It's a fancy studio, man. We have carpet in here. And I just don't like the idea of just treading around my outside shoes on the carpet.

'''Brad:''' Yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense. So today I'm wearing some Adidas 4Ds, Myke. So I don't know if you're familiar with those. But they're the ones with like that kind of weird lattice works. Oh, yeah. Lattice work sole. That is shockingly good.

'''Myke:''' They're the 3D printed ones, right? Yep. Which they call it 4D, which is funny. You know what I also want? And I've been, I've had my eye on them for a while and I am going to do it. The Nike Flygo. The Flyease. They're the ones you can just step in and out of. Yep.

'''Myke:''' That's it. The Nike Go Flyease. That's the one that they make. Yeah, those are cool. I think these look really sweet. John Voorhees got some because he injured his leg again and he bought some and he's like, these things are incredible.

'''Brad:''' Yeah. They're a really cool design. That's something I've read a lot about the design of those. It's a very technologically advanced design and I appreciate that.

'''Myke:''' And I think they've done something really smart with like the Flyease. There's a bunch of different ones now, but like where they have, you know, they've basically designed a shoe for people with mobility issues. But have then like subsidized the design work in making versions of the shoe that anyone would want. Right. Right. So like I don't have mobility issues, but I like the idea of a shoe that I could just slip in and off when I'm here at the studio. Right. Like this could actually replace my Mojave slippers for me. Gotcha. Because I change in and out of them frequently. Like if I'm going out to get a coffee or whatever, I won't wear my slippers out there because it's the whole point of wearing them. Yeah. Anyway.

'''Brad:''' Sneaker cast. We could do a whole like I am just biting my tongue on like all the things I could talk about. But like I'm kind of mostly out of that game now because, again, it's like pens. Like I will preach, you know, if you're going to buy it, you need to use it. And I stopped using like I don't have the opportunity to wear all the sneakers that I was buying. So I stopped. Like just cold turkey. I haven't bought a pair of like the sneaker heady type sneakers in probably we're probably about two years now.

'''Myke:''' All right. Okay. Next one comes from Brian. And it's a longer one. All right.

'''Brad:''' I think this one we tried to cut down a lot of these. I think this one is one of the good context ones. Needs it. This one gets us there. And I think it's kind of a universal question that I think is worth answering.

'''Myke:''' Okay. I just took a sip of water. Let's do this. From Brian. I am a fairly new pen addict. Right now I'm in the Lamy Safari world and pen and ink part of my fountain pen journey. Originally, I found the pen addict after being a Cortex listener. Hi, Brian. This year, my theme is reflection, specifically writing more stuff down to remember things now. I've been more aware of my mental growth over the next year. Love it. Love it. In the past, you posed a question for what the next steps after your Lamy Safari should be. And I thought I could offer a unique perspective from a newly forged pen addict. Back in August of 2021, I was going back to work as a teacher and I found myself asking for a pen from a colleague and realized that I didn't want to touch anyone's pen. And while still in the midst of the pandemic. My co-workers laughed it off, but that's 100% serious. So, after finding your podcast in the top five list on the blog, I found a space pen to fit my then current needs and your podcast to be my new addiction. Since then, I now have a knocked matte black space pen. I don't know that one.

'''Brad:''' Yeah, there's a space pen that has a knock. It's kind of a squishy knock. Oh, okay.

'''Myke:''' A bullet matte black space pen, a Lamy Safari Terrafine with Lamy Blue Black ink, and a Schaefer Star Wars Yoda fountain pen medium with diamine aurora borealis. To follow up with the Lamy Safari then what conversation, I found buying a novel fountain pen like the Schaefer Star Wars series was the perfect follow up for me after my Safari. But I agree with Myke that going into the converter is probably the way to go. This was the next step I took after I finished my initial Lamy Blue refill. I think the next step for me will be buying a new nib for the Safari to test if I really like the fine nib or would prefer something different. I found that I like the ink flow on the page from the Schaefer medium nib, but admit it does write a little wet. So, I'm curious as to how the Lamy medium will write for me. I would just jump in and say here, Lamy medium is not a wet pen. So, I don't know if that's a Schaefer thing. I think you'll have a better experience with a Lamy medium nib. My other reason for wanting to explore the Lamy nibs is that I'm also beginning to look at the Lamy 2000 as my first gold nib pen eventually. And I want to make sure that I do not invest in a pen like that with too small of a nib that cannot be ground down by someone like Myke Masayama at the LA Pen Show. Sorry for my pen life story, but I just wanted to share and thank you too for opening up this awesome new world to me and also let you know that I am following your recommendation from your early podcast to listen in order. Oh boy, I'm currently on episode 68. Honestly, by the time this episode goes out, Brian might have caught up for how long we've had this in a document. And I'm loving every second of the show. You two make my commute in LA traffic far more bearable. And also, okay, if you're listening in LA traffic, you may complete the entire show in the afternoon. It's by the understanding I have of LA traffic. I do have a couple of questions for you. One, do you think many people like me have found this new pen obsession comforting during the pandemic?



== Current Pen Trends and Community Growth ==


'''Brad:''' Absolutely. Right. I think it's crystal clear. And I say that by not by like necessarily like looking at numbers or anything like that, but just anecdotal evidence from retailers that I was very worried about their inability to travel to pen shows, which is, you know, a good chunk of change over the years for, you know, companies that actually really need the business. That they, I don't, I won't go as far as saying that they had a boon time during the pandemic, but they had, they ran healthy business during the pandemic. They didn't have a bus time. Yeah. Yeah.

'''Myke:''' They didn't have a bus time. Which is what we were worried about first. But then it ended up being that like people wanted a new thing to do.

'''Brad:''' And then the second anecdotal piece to that is once travel started happening, I'm getting more and more just one-off reports from pen shows at all the new faces that are there, which is a continuation of the first step during the pandemic is like discovering this new thing.

'''Myke:''' Which is good for pen shows because if the community has grown, the people that still do not want to go to pen shows will now be replaced by the people that are new in the hobby. Right. So it's good, right? Like that's what you want to happen.

'''Brad:''' Right. So you're still not at pre-pandemic numbers, but you're kind of having this backfilling of new customers. So that also means like there's like a shift in the buying habits as well to like, you know, less expensive, you know, introductory type pens and starter inks and notebooks and things like that. So, you know, it's all kind of like a cycle and that's kind of the cycle that we're in right now. And I think that's healthy, right? It feels healthy to me and I do think a lot of that came from, you know, finding hobbies during the pandemic times. And I think there's no doubt in that.

'''Myke:''' Second question. Do you think my current plan flow from Safari to Lamy 2000 is a good way to go about my pen journey or should I just buy another Safari or Aostar to test the medium nib?

'''Brad:''' I have a harder time with this question.

'''Myke:''' I don't. So I'll say first, get another Safari in a different color of a medium nib. Don't just buy a nib, right? Because the price difference isn't that much and treat yourself to a new Safari. That's what I would suggest. I do.

'''Brad:''' I agree with that. I agree with that step.

'''Myke:''' Because Lamy Safari nibs, it's really not much of a price difference. Plus, the nibs are really small. They're easy to lose. So genuinely, like Lamy's nibs, no, Lamy's nibs specifically are tiny. They are tiny.

'''Brad:''' I'm giggling because I lost one on stream the other day.

'''Myke:''' Oh, okay. Okay. I thought you were just laughing at me. They're really finicky and small. And like, I would just get a new Safari. Okay.

'''Myke:''' The Lamy 2000 is a funny old bird. Yeah.

'''Brad:''' I have more of a hard time with this question.

'''Myke:''' It is a great pen, provided you get a good one. It is very unreliable in the experience, in its nib experience. Yes. So if you are, it's a recommendation we always give for the 2000. Get a good 2000, you'll be very happy. I have a good 2000. I think you have a good one, but I don't think it was your first one. Right. You want to get it from either a pen show where you can try it out and make sure that it feels right for you.

'''Myke:''' And or from a retailer that has a good, like, returns policy in case it doesn't work out with the one that you buy.

'''Brad:''' Yeah. So I think my struggle with Brian's question is that the Safari nib to the Lamy nib is not a comparable path. No. Like, you shouldn't consider those to be, hey, I'm following this path. Yeah. And the, I can take something from my first experience with the Safari nibs and transpose that into my expected experience with the Lamy 2000. And I think that's a flawed way to think about it. Like, they're...

'''Myke:''' And this isn't the same for all types of pens. Right. But it's just the particulars of the 2000s. It is built differently.

'''Brad:''' Mm-hmm. These are not connected in any kind of straight line whatsoever, like your experience there. So my thought is to try a different brand completely between... I think trying the second Safari nib is fine. And I agree with Myke in that I would buy just by the pen. Like, you're going to spend $15 on a nib or $25 on a pen. And just get a fun one and go with it from there. I don't know if you should try, like, some other brands. Like, maybe a Pilot, right? To get a different, you know, a Japanese-style nib, medium nib, to see how that type of line works for you. Like, a Pilot Metropolitan medium nib. Like, I think that would be a better, a more worthwhile test than buying another Lamy nib to see. I don't know. I think this is actually a very complicated question for what is posed as a very simple question. And that's why I wanted to cover this. Because I think it's good to figure out, okay, which Safari nib size do I like? Like, it's also, I want to be clear that that is not going to translate whatsoever to how you feel about the Lamy 2000s nib.

'''Myke:''' What else? Okay. I, like, part agree with you, part not. Like, I wouldn't go straight to Japanese medium. I would, because it's not.

'''Brad:''' I think it should just be, I don't, it doesn't have to be Japanese medium. I think it needs to be a different brand. It could be Faber-Castell, it could be Kaweco, it could be whatever. I, I just think they're, you know, Twisby, maybe. Just something different to. Yeah, I can see that. Just to kind of grasp an idea of, of, hey, here's how one type of pen manufactures their nib and here's how a different type of pen manufactures their nib. And I'm not saying you have to test all the nibs from all the brands. I think just one thing different from Lamy, Safari nibs, is enough to kind of help you gain a little bit more understanding and education without breaking the bank before you go into, like, a 2000.

'''Myke:''' Yeah. What I will say is, like, it's a mixture between what we both said. I would say your next thing should be a medium Safari so you can compare fine to medium. So you have, like, a light for light comparison, right? Yes, I'm fine with that. Then instead of Lamy 2000, then get a Japanese pen of some description. Yeah. That's why. Yeah. Because I think having the comparison of a good fine to a good medium, like, this is, like, an understanding that you have between the two, I think is good. Because if you go to a Japanese medium, now you're back towards fine territory again.

'''Brad:''' But get a Platinum Preppy medium nib. Yeah. That pen will blow your mind and change everything you think about pens and the path that you're on and might cause you... It's just... It's a data... It's a different enough data point to make a difference in how you think about it. And the more data you have, whether it's good or bad, is helpful. And it's such an inexpensive pen. Like, it would be okay to spend $5 on a Preppy. And get the medium. Like, I think it's the 03 is the medium nib.

'''Brad:''' Maybe it's the 04. I forget. They're a little bit harder to discern. Is the recommendation.

'''Myke:''' Get both Preppy and a medium Safari and you're going to be having a great time.

'''Brad:''' Yeah. I just think you've got to step out of that Safari thing to test one thing. To test one other thing.

'''Myke:''' Yeah, go outside of Lamy. For sure. For sure.

'''Brad:''' Before you get to considering, like, the Lamy 2000, which is a completely different conversation. Which is a great pen and you should maybe get one. But I just don't think you're getting the information that you think you're getting on that path by doing this.

'''Myke:''' Yeah, I think the key here is, like, don't jump straight to expensive gold nib pen when there's so much more that you can experience in the cheaper pens. Which will genuinely, like, open your mind. Like, I would maybe then recommend, like, if you, like, get a Preppy and you like that, get a Twisby Go or a Twisby Eco. So, try that, right? Because these are all going to be super different and you might find something you didn't know in yourself. Yep. That'd be my recommendations.



== Exploring Different Brands and Nibs ==


'''Brad:''' I think it's a great question. And this is, like, the always important question, right? Like, this question comes up a lot because we get a lot of people just starting on this journey. And there's so much to learn and there's so many things out there. And honestly, a lot of this stuff is really expensive, you know. Like, for someone just getting into this, a $25 pen is insanely expensive. Like, that's a big decision to make. So, I'm just, it's hard to say to, like, try a bunch of different things. But I really think that's important in the beginning.

'''Myke:''' Yeah, because you could buy, like, four or five of these lower level pens of all different shapes and sizes instead of getting the Lamy 2000. Yep. And I reckon you'd have more fun. Yeah.

'''Brad:''' Who knows? Who knows? So, it's a great question and something we will continue to explore.

'''Myke:''' Yep. Thank you so much for that. No, Brian, I'm sorry it took us so long. It was a very good email.

'''Brad:''' I think that was the most aged of the STPAs. STPAs. Sorry, Brian.

'''Myke:''' Brian's already got his first Nakaya, you know.

'''Brad:''' Brian's on episode 265 now.

'''Myke:''' Brian, if and when you ever hear this, please let us know what you ended up going with. I'd be very keen to know. Yep.

'''Myke:''' I'd tell you a place where you can buy some of those pens, Brian. Ooh, let me hear it. Penshela. Because they have your favorite brands. They have the products you're looking for. Whether you want a rollerball or a fountain pen or a ballpoint mechanical pencil. Pens of all sizes, all shapes, all prices, all brands. It's all over at Penshalay. And they're always doing great deals. Twice a month, you'll find closeout specials. You're going to find discounts. You're going to find new products being added all the time. Whatever they can get their hands on, they're going to put it online and then they give it to you for a great price. Penshalay do great prices on the products you're looking for. They have really great, reliable customer service. They do free shipping on orders of over $50 in the US. They also sell internationally as well. I bought a bunch of things from Penshalay myself. They also have limited edition products and they have accessories too. Carrying cases, pen holders, refills, converters, ink cartridges, ink bottles, so much more. So as a pen addict listener, not only will you get low prices on high quality pens, not only will you get a 100% satisfaction guarantee, you will also get 10% off anything over at Penshalay. If you go to penshalay.com and click the podcast link at the top of the website and enter the password penaddict, you will be able to get your code to save 10% on anything at any time. And you will also get to feast your eyes on some special deals. Now, every once in a while, me and Ryan have a conversation. And he's like, got some good stuff on there, but you can't talk about it. And this is one of those times. So if you want to see some deals that are so good, we can't even tell you about them, go to penshalay.com, P-E-N-C-H-A-L-E-T.com, click the podcast link at the top of the website, enter the password penaddict, and you will get to feast your grubby mitts on these special offers and get the 10% off code that you need to save anytime over at Penshalay. Our thanks to Penshalay for their continued support of this show and RelayFM.

'''Brad:''' All right, this next question is kind of a follow-up and a continuation of what we just went through. So let's go forward. Do you want me to read this one? Do you need a break from the reading?

'''Myke:''' No, man, I got you because you're good at all the answers, you know. So I get to say some stuff and you get to answer and then I get to say some other stuff. If you read the questions and give the answers, I'm sitting here twiddling my thumbs and like spinning my fidget spinner, you know what I mean? What am I going to do?

'''Myke:''' This comes from Andreas. I have a few pen brands that I am really intrigued about that I have yet to try. So far, I have Lamy, my first love, Twisby, and Pilot. Brands I would like to try include Sailor, Pelican, and Platinum. My question is, what is the true entry level of each brand to get a taste of what I can expect from the higher level offerings? I don't want to shell out $300 on a brand I have not tried. For example, I see the Sailor Compass at $30 with only one nib, and I wonder if that pen would give me a true sense of what the brand offers and maybe explain the love fest you two have for them. So for these pen brands and others, if you care to, what are the true entry level offerings? So we mentioned some of these a moment ago, right? So like with Twisby would be the go, with Platinum is the preppy, Lamy is the safari. What's Pilot? Metropolitan?

'''Brad:''' I'm going to change it up a little bit from what you're saying a little bit. Pilot is probably the Metropolitan and then maybe the Pereira, but they're different feels but use the same nib.

'''Myke:''' I prefer the Pereira.

'''Brad:''' So you're kind of getting a nib idea with the Pilot. So with Pilot, like that's what I'm looking at, either the Pereira or the Metropolitan to give you a nib, you know, kind of idea, at least from line width. Now you got to have to understand that these steel nibs and gold nibs that make up a lot of the price difference between these pens, there's a different feel, right? There's different firmness, you know, there's different softness, there's different smoothness. So it's a little bit tough to say apples to apples that this Pilot pen is going to compare to the next Pilot pen, you know, when the gold, when you're considering a gold nib in there. But I think the, for Pilot, I think the Metropolitan and the Pereira is a good example. For Platinum, I think I would actually step up the preppy and to get a more overall feel in the barrel from like the Prefonte or something like that, or the Procyon, whichever one is like the $20 Platinum, that's the one I'd be looking at. It's a little bit upgraded barrel. And I don't know, it's, it's, the nib is the same as the preppy. So you could just go with the preppy, but I don't know. I just like the feel of, of that kind of $20 Platinum pen range. For Pelican, I honestly think it's more like the, the, the 205 series, like the M205, which is over $100. That being an entry-level Pelican, because your next, most Pelicans that people buy and use are gold nib Pelicans. So getting the same kind of mechanics in the barrel, like from the piston in the same shape barrel as the 405 series Pelicans. I think the 205 is a great, it's a very expensive entry-level pen, but I think it's such a high quality entry-level pen. Like that's what you're looking for at Pelican. You're not looking at some of the really like $20 or $30 Pelicans. Sailor is the hardest one because I think this, I don't like the Sailor Compass. I don't think it's representative of gold nib Sailors, which is really kind of the entry point for Sailors. They, Sailors tried. Sailor is not as good at the entry level as Pilot and Platinum, in, in my opinion. They don't have the quality there that the other brands have. They don't have the barrel consistency that the other brands have. And I, I really haven't enjoyed some of the nibs that the Sailor Steel nibs. I think they're the least representative. So for Sailor, you're actually looking at a Pro Gear Slim as your entry point, in my opinion. And that's more like a $200 pen, right? Which is not really entry level. It kind of defeats the purpose of this question. But I don't, I think my point is they're the least representative comparison of the lower end as it would relate to getting a feel for the higher end pen. So I think Pelican, Pilot, Platinum, I think I like those answers for that. For Sailor, I don't think there is as clear of an answer. So there you go. That's my thoughts.

'''Myke:''' All right. I love how I'm like, oh, I've got some ideas. No. No.

'''Brad:''' What do you know? You may not. You may not. No, but I mean, you were right about that. No, you're right. You're right. You're right. But I think, I think Pilot and Platinum make awesome entry level pens. I think Sailor does not. Yeah. And then Pelican does make entry level pens, but the pen you're leading into is not represented by their entry level pens. You got to bring it up a little bit.

'''Myke:''' Mm-hmm. All right. We'll go back to another question from Andrew. If DC is the fountain pen super show, San Francisco has all the fun from countries like Asia as well, and Chicago is the oldest, what are the non-American pen shows known for?

'''Brad:''' Being cooler than all of the American pen shows.

'''Myke:''' London hasn't been, though.

'''Brad:''' Eh, okay. Minus London.

'''Myke:''' We had that hope, you remember, the 2020 hope of like, oh, I was a new pen show, and then it obviously didn't happen.

'''Brad:''' But I mean, look at the Dutch pen show. Look at Madrid. Look at Toronto. How different was the Toronto? How different was that from what you've experienced?



== International Pen Shows Experience ==


'''Myke:''' It felt like an orderly pen show, which is not an experience I've ever had before. Everyone was going in the same direction around the room, right?

'''Brad:''' There were random cues popping up, and as packed as that was, the level of cuing was amazing. Yep. So I guess that's what the other shows are known for. They're the cueable pen shows.

'''Myke:''' There is something that Andrew left out here, which is the Atlanta pen show, which is known for Brad Dowdy. Is it, though?

'''Brad:''' It's known for Waffle House. Waffle House 1.

'''Myke:''' I don't know about that. It's like, if people want both the first and the last word in pens, they go to Atlanta.

'''Brad:''' Oh, just wait. There's a question about that later. So we'll get to that. I don't know if we're going to get to it. But actually, we'll finish on that one.

'''Myke:''' We're going to finish now, because we're running long again, which I can't believe.

'''Brad:''' Shocker. Shocker. All right. I hope to get to more international pen shows. That's a goal of mine. So that's why I'm not trying to hammer five or six U.S. pen shows every year, now that traveling's back on a little bit. But I'm going to mix it up and try to get out of the country maybe once a year or once every other year to experience. And then I can answer this question better, because right now I don't have a great answer, but I certainly look forward to trying to find out the answer.

'''Myke:''' It's gone from Jacob. I really like the M200 brown marbled. That's a Pelican, right? Pelican M200 brown marbled. Yep. I love the aesthetic and design and the chatoyancy of the barrel. What on earth is that? What's chatoyancy?

'''Brad:''' It's the shiny. Like if you go back to the Leonardo that you linked before, it's kind of that bright, foily looking aesthetic, if you will. Right? That brightness of the shine. So it's not just like color depth. It's essentially like the extra chatoyancy. Chatoyancy. It's one of my least favorite words.

'''Myke:''' I don't get it.

'''Brad:''' You will get it when you see it. Think of it. It's like the pearl looking thing.

'''Myke:''' Yeah. I have different words for this. Anyway. Right. And the chatoyancy of the barrel matched very well with the black cab and the gold color trims. Really liked it. And Pelican has superb reputation. But I fear of a miss out of a gold nib because of the same similar price of the M200. I can also get a Pilot Custom 74, which is widely regarded as one of the best entry gold nib pens. I can only spend money on one of these. Which should I get? Should I be FOMO on the Custom C74's Gold Nib or get the Pelican or what?

'''Brad:''' All right. We're going to combine two questions here. I want you to read this next one that I just moved up from Michael. And then we'll have one larger conversation here.

'''Myke:''' From Michael, I have long wanted you to discuss the frequently heard and written admiration of gold nib pens. As an example, Jeff Abbott's remarks in his recent review of the BBS 456, quote, The 823 has a 14-karat gold nib, so it automatically just feels nicer to use when writing. It has soft flex and smoothness on paper that a steel nib can't touch. Given that tipping materials are very similar, I have trouble with the understanding the frequent comments about smoothness. Softness may be evident, but not necessarily. Having a stable over 300 fountain pens, I speak from experience. I have golden, quote, nail nibs and soft Estabrook steel nibs. I'd love a considered commentary about this gold nib meme. Is it purely psychological bias?

'''Brad:''' All right. So this is a broader steel nib versus gold nib questions on both of these. Jacob being new and trying to learn the difference and Michael being experienced and wondering, is there actually really a hubbub? So let's take Jacob's kind of first, but I'll preface that with my personal preferences is I'm almost material agnostic, right? The nib has to feel right to me, regardless of whether it's steel or gold. And what that means to me is my nibs, I want them to be firm, okay? This is something that I have discovered about myself in the long term of what I like, okay? So I've used plenty of steel nibs that are soft and I've used plenty of gold nibs that are firm. In general, it's the opposite, right? So most steel nibs are firm and most gold nibs are soft. It's not universal. I agree that there's opposite ends pretty frequently of the spectrum here. So Jacob, you should never fear missing out on a gold nib, in my opinion. I think steel nibs are great. I think they're some of the best nibs on the market. They're some of my most used nibs. They're some of my favorite nibs. So you should be looking for the writing experience that best suits you. And if it's a steel nib because of the firmness, you should use that because it fits on a pen that is aesthetically pleasing to you, like the Pelican that you're mentioning. Knowing that you will always be able to get a Pilot Custom 74 with a gold nib from here till the end of time, right? That is just a common Pilot Custom 74. You will always have the opportunity to have that gold nib. And it's a good gold nib. It's a little bit soft. It's pretty smooth. Each manufacturer finishes their nibs differently, which is kind of rolling into Michael's part of the question, right? Like, I can tell the difference between Piler, Salid, and Platinum nibs, right? But a lot of people will just say, hey, 14-karat gold nib. Like, that's what it is. Well, Pilates are very glassy, almost sticky, right? Pelican, excuse me, Platinums have a kind of tactile feedback. Right? And then Sailors are the firmest of the three and can be a little bit more scratchy, right? Not all gold nibs are created equal, just like not all steel nibs are created equal. So, Jacob, if I can only spend money on one pen, what should I get? You should not worry about FOMO and only being able to buy one pen and not getting a gold nib. Like, I'm not going to tell you how to answer this question, but that should not be in the calculation, the FOMO of, well, I could have spent this money on a gold nib pen. Because that doesn't mean that that gold nib is going to be good for you. It just means you paid for a gold nib. I hope that, does that make sense? I think I said that like as clear as I could say.

'''Myke:''' It is a preference thing. For my style, I think gold nibs are better. I think in general, they can be too. But it isn't universal. And, you know, on the last episode, I was talking about the fact that one of my favorite pens that I've ever used, one of the best performing pens I've ever used is the M90, which is a steel nib. But it's also like the best, one of the best steel nibs you could get. Like, so it's all relative to you, your preferences and the pens themselves.

'''Brad:''' So, yeah. So to follow up at Michael's question, he ends it with, is it purely psychological bias? And if you read Jacob's question, it's purely psychological. Jacob is saying, what am I, I feel like I'm missing out by not having this gold nib and paying the price for it, even though like the steel nib is a similar price. I think that is psychological, right? So my answer to that, and I think that's what Michael's alluding to, is it shouldn't be. Like, it's false. Like, it doesn't add up in the end because it doesn't matter what you spend on a gold nib. If it doesn't work for you, it's a bad purchase, right? The material doesn't matter. You have to figure out what's good for you. And then if it has to be, for whatever reason, if it has to be gold, well, then you can find some, a specific brand that makes nibs a specific way. Like Aurora, for example, makes a very thick, dense gold nib. That tends to be firm. Where Pelican makes a thinner, bouncier gold nib that is great for like broader, you know, wetter ink flow and wider writing. Like, that's why I can't use Pelicans because the nib doesn't match. I couldn't care less if it's gold or steel. I care if it works for the way my, for, you know, my handwriting is. So, you don't want to get caught up in the FOMO of buying a great pen and avoiding it just because it's a steel nib. And then buying maybe a lesser pen for yourself just because it has a gold nib. Like, you have to erase that from your head and think about what's the writing experience goal that you're trying to get first and foremost. So, yeah.

'''Myke:''' Yeah, I don't agree with the insinuation, though, that like we only like gold nibs because they're more expensive.

'''Brad:''' Oh, I don't buy. I obviously don't buy into that at all.

'''Myke:''' Yeah. But I think there is a slight insinuation there from Michael's question.

'''Brad:''' Sure. No, I think that's like the bias, right? Like, I don't have that. But when you're looking at someone like Jacob who is newer and he's trying to understand what's the big deal. And what I'm telling you is it's not a big deal.

'''Myke:''' But I don't want to say that it's not a thing because it might be the thing for you. Right. Yeah. Last question comes from Andrew. If Brad is the first and last word in fountain pens, what's Myke?

'''Myke:''' All of the pointless stuff in the middle, the things that are wrong, the stuff that needs correcting, I'm all of those words.

'''Brad:''' Yeah, Myke is a thorn in my side. The filler. That's what Myke is. Brad's all killer and I'm just filler. That's how it goes. We'll leave it at that.

'''Myke:''' And that's the last word. Thanks so much to everybody who submitted a question for this episode. If you would like to submit, because we still didn't get to all of them. We didn't even come close. I knew we weren't going to. You can send out a tweet with the hashtag RSTPA. You can use question mark RSTPA in the RelayFM members Discord. And you can send longer questions to hello at penaddict.com. If you want to find Brad online, go to penaddict.com. He is penaddict on Instagram. Dowdy is on Twitter and streams at twitch.tv slash penaddict. And I am imike. I am YKE. Thank you so much to Pen Chalet for the support of this episode. And we'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye, Brad.

'''Brad:''' Goodbye, Brad. Bye. Bye.

[[Category:Podcast Transcripts]]
[[Category:The Pen Addict Podcast Transcript]]