Editing The Pen Addict 538/transcript (section)

== Definition and Popularity of Machined Pens ==


'''Myke Hurley:''' Yeah. The definition of machined pens is so broad, right? Like, on, like, isn't every pen made of a machine? Like, what are they referring to? Do you think? Probably, you know, the metal barrel pens,

'''Brad Dowdy:''' you know, take like spoke for design. It spokes, a machine pen, uh, tactile turn, Keras customs, you know, all of our popular like machine makers, but like, I get what you're saying.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Any of that, to be honest, like just, they, they, they, they're bad. This is where the,

'''Brad Dowdy:''' the hot take goes into the personal realm. Like these are tastes, right? This is a personal taste, a preference, right? This is a preference, I believe not a hot take, which I'm down with that. Like, if you don't like them, that's totally cool. Um, and you know, if they look unfinished to you, yeah, I, I get that. Like, I've seen some machine pens that just like look like steel and unfinished and like, that's not your style. You know, um, there's a lot, there's tons of brands out there that, that do this. Um, the machine pens are pointless. I is, is more of a weird one to me because that's that I do see the fact that is, that's a very stationary nerd thing. Like if I'm a pilot G2 fan and I'm not just a regular user, I'm actually like an active writer. I'm looking for something better, but like, I like the G2 and I like the 0.5 millimeter G2. And I just don't like how that barrel is. Well, could I find something better? And I think that's kind of like a, like the, the next step into like the path of like full on stationary addiction, like we have. And in that case, like I get why people buy machine pens. Obviously I'm coming from a huge place of bias here as I've been before I was even involved in spoke pen. I've long been, you know, the Kickstarter machine pen guy, right? That's a decade long thing for me. So I obviously have completely different thoughts on this, but like I get the style hot take more than the, why do they exist? Hot take. Like I do like having, Hey, let me get an upgrade for my cool, cool, uh, ink refill that I like so much and have something more fun. If I'm going to use this pen very, very regularly, let me, uh, let me upgrade how it appears a little bit. So, uh, you know, I do find that interesting. So next one, Myke, I I'm interested on your, your, uh, take on this. So this is also from Twitch. Most makie looks like a child got hold of some finger paints, good at a distance, but never close up hot take go.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Somebody put that child into art college. Cause they're clearly very talented. Whoever this person's child that is that they've seen, uh, that's creating this, this, this kind of artwork, they've got some skills. Cause I'll tell you right now that has been on us. That's the thing.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yeah. Yeah. I, I, yeah, I'm trying to think, I mean, there there's levels, right? There's tiers, but even like, if you're looking at a very simple, um, pen with makie art that, you know, is not like overly embellished or very simple, I think it looks pretty great still. Like even like the most simple stuff, and we're not even talking about the expensive stuff, which certainly does not look like a finger paint issue, but, uh, even like the, the low end stuff, like it's a fine, delicate artwork. Like I, I appreciate even the simplest attempt at doing this, but, uh, yeah, I get it. That's a preference. That's a preference there. And maybe a little bit of a hot take, you know, maybe a little lukewarm. I don't know, but, uh, that's, that's definitely a thing. I like how this is going, Myke. We got, we got some more to cover. We have some more that I think are going to cause some, uh, consternation here, but, uh, let's take a break real quick. And we're going to get into a couple of these other ones. Some are very simple and some, I think we're going to have a long

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'''Brad Dowdy:''' support of the pen addict and relay FM. We're going to get back into it with this three word hot take. Rodia is Rodia is overrated.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Any thoughts?

'''Myke Hurley:''' I don't know if I disagree.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' I am in the same boat. When someone said that in chat, I was like, you know what? I think I might agree with this statement. And that is not a knock on Rodia. That is a long term evolution in testing out, trying, discovering new papers. Rodia has become available now, right? Rodia used to not be available in the broad sense, you know, a decade ago. You know, it was unique at the time. It's still unique. Like it's a what we call like a coated paper, right? It works well for fountain pens. Once you start discovering fountain pens, it handles fountain pens beautifully. I think it's so here's Rodia is not necessarily overrated, but in a weird way, it's become utilitarian in our world, right? It's the ubiquitous paper now. And so maybe just like my personal tastes have changed, where I actually don't actively use Rodia. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's overrated. But like I found things that I prefer, you know, Midori, Life, Moromon, all of these things. And I tend to recommend them more than Rodia. But I still recommend Rodia a lot for beginners and people who are trying to discover what they like. And hey, what how can paper make a difference in your writing experience? And Rodia is always a great thing for that. So I guess I won't say it's overrated. But I don't disagree with the statement as much as I thought. One of the hangups I've always had with Rodia is their pads. Since Rodia pads are top tier, their bound hardcover notebooks are not close to the pads, right? There's this real disconnect in those two products I've seen in my experience and other people's experiences. So if their hardbound products were, you know, could match the pads, I think the pads are the way to go in the hardbound stuff. I'm looking elsewhere. So. All right, Myke.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Yeah, I just said to the last thing on the Rodia thing, I think it's like a carryover from when we didn't know so much, you know, like where we didn't have as much access to new products, or we just didn't, hadn't yet tried a bunch of stuff. And so the idea that like, you know, at that time, Rodia was like a really fun and high quality experience. And then we've maybe like carried that thinking on all this time, even though we found things that are much better,

'''Brad Dowdy:''' but maybe more niche. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't want to use Rodia all day, every day as like my one and only pad. Like now that I use a lot of different pens and papers and Rodia would not be the answer to that particular question. So I think it is still the answer to some questions though. So interesting. All right, here's the two parter. So this, these are two different comments, but they both tie into the same idea. So let me read them both to you. So this is the first one. Too much about pens is focused on making them more expensive instead of good writers. Okay. So that was one hot take. The second separate hot take from a different, different person in Twitch, you can have a better experience with a $30 pen than a $300 pen. So let's take the first one first. Too much about pens is focused on making them more expensive instead of good writers.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' This is like a thesis paper discussion, right? Because they're almost unrelated topics, right? There's, there's two parts of this statement that are generally unrelated, except by the end product, they're completely related, right? You're using the pen as a complete object. What makes it expensive doesn't always translate to making it a good writer because those two things are oftentimes not related, right? Where does the cost come from? Okay. In the nib material, right? Is it steel or is it gold? Let's just keep it that simple right now. So that's a flat cost difference, right? So steel nib is let's just for a quick math, let's say a steel nib is $25 and a gold nib is $150, right? Those are just, let's just call them facts, even though that's, that's being a little bit strong with the word. Let's just say that's what it is. Everything else is unrelated to the cost of the nib in what makes the pen expensive, you know, what type of material they're using. Like, I'm not saying anything, anyone doesn't know this already, you know, what is the material? What is the filling system? You know, what type of extra artwork do we go back to the or is it just a basic acrylic or is it just, you know, very inexpensive, inexpensive, you know, molded plastic, you know? I think in breaking down this question, the focus is, God, it's really hard to explain. The focus when you're making a pen is on the overall and writing experiences is only a part of it. And that's kind of backwards to say out loud, right? That doesn't make sense when you say it out loud. But let's take Lamy, for example. If I'm Lamy, like I'm making like a safari that is a unique design, a unique feel. It's trying to teach people how to grip a pen, right? It also writes words, right? So like, am I saying the writing experience of a Lamy safari is secondary? No, but that's not the only question Lamy's trying to answer when they're designing a safari. So when you say the focus should be on the writing experience, I think you're missing out on what makes the pen great overall, right? What if you had the best writing pen that wasn't comfortable or you didn't enjoy looking at or didn't feel right in your hand, right? Like I'm struggling with this a little bit because I'm not disagreeing, but I think I'm almost trying to figure out how to reword this into, you know, a more defined answer. And I'm not sure I could do it. Do you have any help with me on this one?

'''Myke Hurley:''' I don't know in general if like, it feels like that there is more headroom into making a pen expensive in ways that are other than its writing ability. Like it feels like that's kind of probably been perfected at this point. Like the way that say a fountain pen, like it's experienced to use the way it feels to write. I don't know how much more innovation is left. And if there is any, it's going to be really complicated and expensive for a company to develop that. I feel like where they can, if they, you know, make it look prettier, use more expensive materials, that's, so it's like, yeah, maybe the focus is on making pens more expensive instead of good writers. But I would argue that maybe we've already made them as good as they can be. And if you don't think a pen is a good writer, you shouldn't be spending any money on it. No matter what materials it is, I don't know.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Right. Yeah, I agree with that. Like I'm having a hard time separating the two, right. And almost like taking costs out because I don't know how, how am I going to make the writing better? Like you're saying, right? Like for lack of a better term, is that solved, right? The writing part is pretty much solved. Now, are we talking about quality control? Like, I think that's a different, a different question as well. So like, this is a really tough, like I get the idea behind the question. I'm not sure, or behind the hot take, but I'm not sure, like I'm totally, I have a, like a great answer to, to yeah, I totally agree with this or no, I totally disagree with this. I think it's, it's, it's somewhere in the middle. So, so let's break down the second part. You can have a better experience with a $30 pen than a $300 pen. Absolutely. I mean, sure. I mean, I will preach

'''Myke Hurley:''' that from the mountaintop. Yeah. It depends what the two are, doesn't it really? Yeah. And again,

'''Brad Dowdy:''' we're getting deep into preferences in this one as opposed to hot takes, but this is, this is just a fact, right there. You will never get an argument from me on this one, right? You were, this is, this is a fact. Like this is, this is what we, what we think about a lot. And we talk about, this gets into that value conversation that's impossible to define. Like, well, why is this pen $30 in this pen $300? And why should I buy, why should I buy the $300 one? Well, I mean, maybe you shouldn't like I, there's not a black and white answer to that. You know, the $30 pen could write better than your $300 pen. That's just a fact, but you know, you got to realize like, we're not just buying strictly one single thing when we're, when we're paying for a pen, you know, we're paying, we're buying all of it together. And maybe it's, you know, a $5 preppy that's just brilliant, right? Or, you know, maybe it's a $300, you know, pilot eight 23. That's like a technical Marvel, you know? So like, it's hard to compare those two and you can absolutely have a better experience with a $30 pen than a $300 pen. So I would almost say that's not even a hot take. I think that's just a fact. All right. All three of these lukewarm takes here, we're going to go, we're going to give these the lukewarm take came in from three different people at three different times, independent of each other, not like back and like, not like immediately one after the other. So the first one I had written down was pen choice matters more than paper. The second one, again, separate time, separate person, paper matters more than the pen. And then the third one in independent of the other two, ink matters more than the pen or the paper. So which is it, Myke? Are any of those hot takes?

'''Myke Hurley:''' So the first one is pen choice matters. Do you think people are trolling there? Like, do you, like, you know what I mean? Like what's going on? What's going on? I don't, I don't, because I

'''Brad Dowdy:''' actually, there could be some trolling, but I thought these work good together because I think there is one small take in there. And I think that people just, I think that my lukewarm take is that paper is more important than people give it credit for. So out of those three, I think the pen is the least important choice. I think the paper matters the most, the ink matters the second, and the pen does not matter. So maybe by pen choice matters. I would not say maybe by pen choice matters more than paper. Maybe they mean like refill or ink, you know, but like, I think, I think paper is the underrated, um, least, um, or the most forgotten aspect of, of the, the triangle here that we have to have, you know, like the pen, ink and paper, um, triangle. You need all of those things to, to do well. I think paper is the most underrated of the three. Um, and then ink matters a lot. Like ink matters a lot. I would go pen, paper, ink. What do you mean by pen? Can you define pen?

'''Myke Hurley:''' What is what question? What kind of question is that? What do you mean? Can I define? Like,

'''Brad Dowdy:''' is it the, yeah, yeah, yeah. When you say the pen matters the most, you're talking about the, the writing system as in like the, the internals, the refill aspect or the nib aspect of it, not

'''Myke Hurley:''' the physical barrel and design. For me, like, yes, like the quality of the nib. Like I find for me, a good fountain pen can make bad paper more bearable.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Where for me, good paper cannot make a bad pen more, more bearable.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Okay. Yeah. I, I won't disagree with that. I see what you're saying.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Like, I think that, that like a good, a really good fountain pen can like even out problems in paper and where like, for me, that isn't the case. Cause like some of the things that I find worse in fountain pens, like scratchiness or whatever, even good paper can't stop that from

'''Brad Dowdy:''' happening for me. Okay. I can see that. Okay. I gotcha. So yeah. So, you know, the, the nib slash refill is the most important thing. Yeah. But I can, yes. That's part of that. In your mind. Yeah. Yeah. I, and I'm not saying papers, the most important thing I'm saying papers, the most forgotten. Like if someone has a pen and an ink and a, in a fountain pen, in the case of a fountain pen, a nib and they go, and then they just grab their, whatever the, the pad on their desk is and they go, Oh, this is terrible. Like the first question I'm asking is what paper are you using? Not what pen are you using or what nib do you have? Those are the set. That's the second question I asked. I think that's my point. Fair enough. So yeah, it's, it's good. So I think there, there's people who, uh, will, will break these in, uh, rank these in different orders, which is interesting to me. So yeah, that's good. That's good. All right. Next one could be, could be a little, little hot, maybe a little lukewarm. Miss me with holiday theme pens. What's your take on this?

'''Myke Hurley:''' Yeah. If you don't want them, you don't want them. Like I don't feel like I particularly need holiday theme pens. I like the occasional Christmas pen. Um, but I think I'm generally on the,

'''Brad Dowdy:''' the miss me with holiday theme pens. I like looking at them. I don't really care to own them. I think the one exception is Halloween. I think Halloween has the best colors and the best designs and kind of like the, the spooky themes, like kind of fit again, preferences, not really hot takes, right? Preferences. But I think in general, you know, miss me with the holiday pens. I would sign that petition, I guess. Um, you know, if we didn't have any holiday theme pens, I'd miss seeing some of the spooky Halloween stuff. I do like that. But, uh, outside of that, yeah, I'm good. I'm covered. Um, all right. Next one that this might be a hot take. I don't know. It might, maybe it's obvious. I'm interested to see what you say. Fountain pens are the worst choice in almost every situation.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' I'm having a hard time disagreeing with that statement.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' I, I'm with you. I'm with you. I think I agree. I mean, I think I'm in hot take. I think I'm in hot take ville on this one. I think this is a hot take. And I think I'm signed, sign me up. I can agree with it, but I don't agree. You know what I'm saying?

'''Myke Hurley:''' Like, I can, I can 100% agree with, like, I can say, yes, you are right. But that's, I prefer them.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' But except at my desk, writing in my journal, you know, with my cursive italic nib and my beautiful ink. I mean, then it's the best, it's the best choice in that situation.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Just all, every time I use them. It's like, you know, I'm using, I'm using a fountain pen today to just write down time codes of things that I need to tidy up in the episode. Like, it's like, so pointless, you know, like such, such simple writing, which, you know, I have to have like a whole thing. Like I use my, my, it's called, man, is it called Inkwell?

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yeah. Yeah. From a good. The little stand?

'''Myke Hurley:''' Yeah. Good, good made better, right? Good made better. So I use that stand because most of my fountain pens, uh, pen wells, pen wells. Yeah, the pen wall. Pen well. So I use the pen well thing, uh, because I, I can't be unscrewing and re-screwing the cap on my pen every time, right? Uh.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Because we make a lot of mistakes.

'''Myke Hurley:''' Yep. Not really. But like, it's just like a whole thing where it's like, it can get annoying. Well, because I used to do it, you could sometimes hear the pen being capped and uncapped on my microphone. True. It's like a whole thing. And, uh, so really just a simple pen that wouldn't leak or whatever, or could be just left out would be better. But no, I want to use a fountain pen for that instead because I enjoy it. It feels nicer to use. I don't know.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Right, right. Yeah. I thought that was an interesting one. Um, I kind of didn't disagree with that. Um, so related, we're going to wrap it. This is the last hot take one, and this is for me, and it's kind of related to the previous topic. So, uh, this is for me. Ballpoint pens are the best choice in almost every situation.