Editing The Pen Addict 255/transcript (section)

== Bullet Journaling ==


'''Brad Dowdy:''' So I think that leads a little bit into our next question. What we're going to talk about a lot during the rest of the show is kind of the proliferation of the system as a whole and how it's turned it. I won't say it's changed because it hasn't changed, but it's, I called it like in our show document, it's become, I've said, it's more of a, we see a lot more visual aspects of bulletin. Bullet journaling, be it, you know, artwork, design, lettering, as opposed to what I referred to as like the strict X and O's task-based system, you know, just a black and white system, which is highly modifiable for your personal needs. Well, it turns out a lot of those people's personal needs was to really have some detailed looks at bullet journaling and how it's kind of, that's what seems to float to the top, like when I'm looking on Instagram now and things like that. So what do you, how do you, I guess, feel about that type of look for the bullet journal as opposed to, you know, when you set it up, you know, you didn't have, you know, huge banners and intricate drawings on your pages, but that's a perfectly reasonable use for the bullet journal, right?

'''Ryder Carroll:''' Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I think the, one thing that's changed a lot about the bullet journal is the way that I talk about it. And essentially at first, when I had just the focus of teaching the method about how to do it, I didn't really talk a lot about why, why you should be doing it. And part of that is because that's significantly more personal to me. But I've found that the more I share, the more people connect to the system. And one of the main reasons for bullet journaling is to spend time with yourself, to like spend time thinking about the things that matter to you. That's like the bullet journal is very much a mindfulness practice that's disguised as a productivity system. You know, it's one of these times where like you literally just take the thoughts out of your head and you can put them on the paper any way that you see fit. Mm-hmm. And they can sit down and kind of work with that. They capture what's on the inside onto paper and then they're able to figure out what that means to them, you know? And part of being mindful is like spending time understanding why you're pursuing the things that you're pursuing rather than just ticking boxes. It's not always about checking boxes. It's about pursuing things that have meaning. And for me, somebody who's been doing it for a long time, that happens very quickly, right? As I said, it's ingrained in me. So for me, I use my bullet journal as little as possible. It's like here's what's on my head. It's on the paper. I don't have to think about it anymore. And then, you know, during my reflection, I'll come back and then actually filter down even further what I'd written down. But that process, that process, that luxury that we have so rarely afforded to us anymore takes on different forms for different practitioners. So whereas I have, you know, just a black pen and, you know, a white page and that's all the space I need, other people express themselves differently. You know, they're still doing exactly what I am, but the way that they get to the same place I do looks different. And I think that is wonderful. Like, I think that's a beautiful evolution. It's very much about learning about yourself. And the way you do that is by showing up. And bullet journaling as a practice encourages you to do just that. You know, there's no big fanfare about it. Sit down with your book. Take a look. Like, what are you working on? Why are you working on these things? How are you feeling? You know, just show up. And you get to be present with yourself in a very practical, hands-on way. You know, a lot of people do meditation or they do yoga or some, you know, other different ways to kind of connect their mind and their body together. Bullet journaling can, I find that that helps as well. I mean, I do it in addition to meditating, but at the same time, it just allows my mind and my body kind of just to have a moment to be at the same place. At the same time. And it's offline, too. So that's a big part of it. You kind of just... Even better. Yeah. I mean, you can just, like, all of a sudden you start doodling and you're like, oh, you know what? This is fun. This is great. Or you can create a piece of beauty just for yourself. It's kind of the highest form of bullet journaling is when you found a way to express yourself in a way that is helpful. And that's where things get tricky, right? Because on the other hand, a lot of people are exposed to bullet journaling the first time on Instagram and Pinterest. And they see these incredibly beautiful, incredibly elaborate, like illuminated manuscripts almost. And they're like, I can't do that. That's not for me. Or I don't have time for that. That's not for me. Or they start trying to emulate that without understanding the underlying methodology, which is very simple and very lean. You know, the whole idea is you can get this thing, like journaling at the speed of life. You know, how can you get the most amount out of this in the shortest period of time? And for some people, that is an hour. For me, it's less. So on the one hand, I think it's wonderful for people who understand how to bullet journal to evolve into these more elaborate states because it's their choice. That's their journey. But it becomes problematic when people think that that's actually the way you should be bullet journaling. And that's kind of part of what I try to help people understand better and provide clarity with that. You know, grow into whatever you want to become, but start with the basics and keep it super simple for at least the first couple of months. Because that's, that's, the system is what's important. It's not about how your book looks like. It's about how it works, like how functional and practical it is in helping you accomplish the things you set out to accomplish.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Yeah, I think that's said perfectly. And these are things I want to explore a little bit more for you and even get a little bit more detailed in. We do want to take another quick sponsor break for our good friends at Squarespace. Mr. Hurley, tell us about Squarespace.

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'''Brad Dowdy:''' So you talk about seeing, you know, the visual aspects of bullet journaling and the highly detailed stuff on Instagram, Pinterest, things like that. And wondering, you know, are people going to be, you know, turned off by the barrier to entry? And it makes me wonder, do you personally feel like the bullet journal is still yours? Like, has it, do you feel, have any like kind of worries? This has gotten away from the core of what I was trying to do. Do you have any of those kind of thoughts when you're, when you see just some of the work out there? And I just want to be clear, I'm not knocking any of that work. I think it's amazing. And the way that you put it out there is, you know, people have to find their own way. But you kind of hope they understand why they've done this in the first place. Do you think that any of this has gotten away from you or that you're disattached from the bullet journal yourself personally?

'''Ryder Carroll:''' Well, I mean, I'm lucky to have an incredibly supportive community. Like, the thought leaders inside the bullet journal community, which there are many of, are very respectful of the fact that I made it. And they always encourage people to go back to the source material. So, A, there's that. And that's, I'm incredibly grateful for. But I'm going to approach this from a different angle. I think that I'd probably be clear to understand. What you see now for the bullet journal, and even when I launched it, is the result of years of getting it wrong. You know what I mean? I got so many things wrong that didn't help, that didn't work, and more importantly, that didn't last. Right? And that's really what you want with any practice or anything you dedicate yourself to. You want to make sure that there's some longevity involved. And to make sure that that longevity is possible, I designed the system in a certain way. You know, I designed it with a certain flexibility and everything in mind. So, for me, what's most important is to maintain the integrity of the system, you know? And that's because I believe it can have a powerful impact in people's lives. You know, I want to be able to set people up for success. And that's the most important thing. You know, it's not about me so much as it is. It's like, I want to make sure that people are able to benefit from all my failures. You know what I mean? And like, that's the whole idea.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' I mean, do you think you can control this? I mean, do you try? Or do you just believe in the faith of the community to put forth, hey, here's the founding principles? You know, like, I sometimes wonder if, like, if I was in your shoes and I'm at bed at night, I sometimes feel like I've lost complete control seeing what I see out there.

'''Ryder Carroll:''' I mean, at the end of the day, that doesn't concern me as much as people teaching it incorrectly. So, like, I just focus on trying to provide the most amount of value to my community. And that's really my focus. Like, are there people who bullet journal who don't know anything about me? Sure. And that's okay. You know, at the end of the day, I feel confident that the community, you know, has my back as I have theirs. And, like, I feel as long as that remains my focus, that's the best I can do. I mean, we live in a time where information has no limits. So, at some point, everything kind of blurs around the edges. But at the same time, the core has to stay intact. And, like, I keep working for the core. And there are a lot of people who are going to try bullet journal, and they're not going to like it. Or there are going to be a lot of people who start doing, like, very highly illustrated bullet journals, and they're like, this is exhausting. I can't do it. But for those people who are more interested, they can find their way back. And I'm, you know, I keep working on trying to make that path significantly easier for them. And, you know, the community has been incredibly instrumental in allowing me to do that.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Community is key. If we've, Myke and I have discovered anything, I mean, there's nothing better than having a strong community behind anything that you do. As a support system, a sounding board, you know, everything that is involved in that. I think that sounds fantastic.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' I did have a couple of more technical business-y questions. I noticed, I don't know, at some point in the past year that the bullet journal name has been trademarked. How did that come about? And can you tell us the reasonings behind that? And if you've had issues with, you know, the borrowing of the name or the name as a generic as opposed to a brand? Sure.

'''Ryder Carroll:''' I mean, as soon as I realized there was a potential for a business there, obviously, you know, I cover my bases and create a trademark. Because, again, for me, the most important thing is that I believe in what I teach. And for me, the most important thing is maintain the integrity of that system. And the best way I can do that is protect it from other people just taking it and running with it. And so, in general, I try to make sure that people understand, again, what the source of this information is and to be respectful of that source. And generally speaking, if people aren't, I can just, you know, gently remind them that there are certain limitations on what they can and cannot do. You know, like that. The idea is not to muzzle the community in any way, shape, or form. It's like the opposite of it. But I do take issue with people taking something they don't understand very well and trying to benefit off it as quickly as possible. You know, I've seen people teach it incorrectly or sell things that I wouldn't want to sell because they don't provide value. Or, you know, it's – and those are kind of things I – that's the time that – how can I phrase this properly? I want to make sure that it is always helpful. And I feel that when people try to just piggyback on something that is currently visible, that's probably not their intention.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Is your time or someone close to you's time busy looking for these things? Like, do you have, you know, does this stuff come up naturally? Someone sees something? Or do you have, like, a group or, like, a lawyer on, you know – I don't – I'm not trying to get into the nuts and bolts. But I just see this being an issue that would consume a lot of your time, right?

'''Ryder Carroll:''' I mean, it's all of the above. Again, as I said, the community has my back. And a lot of times, they'll bring things to me. It's like, hey, do you know this person is doing this or that person is doing that? And, like, a lot of times, these people happen to also be dissatisfied customers of whatever, you know, they found out. It's like, oh, this – you know, so it's kind of – it's self-sustaining and self-supportive, if you will. It's really the best of what a community can be. But, yeah, I mean, I definitely am careful to protect what I've built, you know. Yes.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Is there a dot in your personal bullet journal that says, okay, send out cease and desist today?

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Unfortunately, sure.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Sorry. I had to do it. No, absolutely. But, yeah, no, I'm concerned about that, right? I mean, like, the reason why I love talking to you is because, like, you're open and honest about these things. And this is stuff I'm generally curious about, even though it's not necessarily, hey, let's talk about bullet journaling today. The business of the things that we're involved in, you know, myself, Myke, you, it all kind of ties in together. And there's lots of crossover between the communities. And I find it, like you said, the speed at which the bullet journaling has taken off has just been crazy. And I imagine, you know, that's a, you know, a very, as wonderful as it is, it's not without its difficulties and hardships. Absolutely.

'''Ryder Carroll:''' And that's something I'm willing to take on. You know what I mean? I mean, like, I believe in this. And sure, there are always challenges with everything, especially something that grows this fast and this big. And that's what I learn about now. You know, I mean, for me, the important thing is to make people understand that the bullet journal becomes whatever they want it to be and it is theirs. Yep. But at the same time, it's not theirs to sell.

'''Brad Dowdy:''' Right. Exactly. Exactly.

'''Ryder Carroll:''' Yeah. It's a fine line because you want to encourage the community to share as much as possible because that was the whole idea. It's like I'm sharing something that helped me. And like 99.9% of people share things that helped them. And that's wonderful. And I encourage that as much as possible. It's just like the 0.001% that are sharing it for very different reasons. That's where I have to be careful, you know, and I have to make sure. And more importantly, also, I have to make sure that people don't think that this is something that I wasn't involved with. You know, they... Sure. And that's important. Again, it's the integrity of a system that has worked for me. That is what I try to protect.