Editing The Pen Addict 477/transcript (section)

== Plotter Binder System Introduction ==


'''Brad:''' I would not like it.

'''Myke:''' Yeah, like I can't – it's interesting, but I can't work out –

'''Brad:''' Okay. I'm going to help you out here. All right. The overarching – this is my marketing of the plotter. This is not their marketing or PR on the page or anything. The overarching idea you should think about when you're looking at this product is this is for creative professionals.

'''Myke:''' I mean, I'm a creative professional. This doesn't help me.

'''Brad:''' It doesn't, but there's other types. You know, maybe, you know, you need these bigger pages to express the needs that you have to the other people in your office.

'''Myke:''' Yeah, but then I just would wonder – I'm getting in the weeds, but of course we are. Why would you then just have an A4 pad instead?

'''Brad:''' I wonder if they eventually will because this setup could handle an A4, although they would have to add more. They would have to – it would have to be bigger than a six-ring binder, obviously. But, yeah, I'm actually surprised one of the leather sizes didn't have an A4 insert, and I wouldn't be surprised.

'''Myke:''' It's just because, like, I like this idea, but especially with having the way they do in these, like, two folds, so, like, it doesn't fold in half. You fold, like, in – let's just say thirds. It's not thirds, but that's the easiest way to think of it. Yes. You end up folding the thing in half, which will damage the paper. That seems strange to me.

'''Brad:''' You also don't have to buy this, right? No, I know, I know, I know, I know. I'm with you. I don't disagree with anything you said. I would not like that insert in my notebook because I would not use it. Like, that is a 1% or 2% usage situation where the standard memo pages are a 90% usage situation.

'''Myke:''' There are people who see this and they're like, well, that's exactly what I want. Like, that is for me, right? Like, I get that, right? Like, this stuff is very personal in use. But, yeah, this part, that part, like, it doesn't make sense to me completely.

'''Brad:''' It's kind of, I will agree, if it didn't exist, we're not going to miss it.

'''Myke:''' Yeah. Yeah. All right. That's fine. But we're getting in the weeds now because it's not important.

'''Brad:''' Well, I mean, it's going to continue in the weeds. I know, I know, I know. But, like, we're focusing too much on this one thing. Yeah. Yeah. Now we talk about accessories. So I have mine set up. I have two sets of memo pages. I have the two millimeter grid. And then I have the blank. And then I have the to-do list in the back.

'''Myke:''' And those are... Two millimeter grid?

'''Brad:''' It's so faint. It's great. It's great.

'''Myke:''' But that's so small.

'''Brad:''' What are you putting on a two millimeter grid? Nothing. I'm writing, like, every... I'm writing, like, it's a four millimeter grid.

'''Myke:''' Okay.

'''Brad:''' Which is still small. But that's how I write. So, like, I'm looking at the lines on my page. I write, like, in four millimeter blocks.

'''Myke:''' You see, all the Cortex products are in five millimeter dot grid, right? That's... I would consider that to be standard. It is pretty standard. And sometimes... That's why I did it. Because, like, I measured a bunch of stuff. And I want... Sometimes I think, is this five millimeter? It's too small. And they're all rocking two millimeter over there.

'''Brad:''' Two millimeter for some... Is a traditional Japanese format. It goes back to... Like, the old Kukuyo, the green cover sketch. Remember those that I sold with the Panatic stamping on them? Those are, like, the traditional engineering books. Like, the pocket... The original Field Notes pocket notebook hardcover two millimeter grid. Because it was basically... It was a literal field engineering notebook. Okay. So, it's just stuck in Japanese culture. The two millimeter grid's popular. So... All right. I have those divided by some of the many accessories that you can also get with your plotter. Myke. They have project manager... Management folders. Which is a really interesting design that they did here. I think it's not quite fully functional for what they're trying to do. I think that's, like, one of the things that I put on my notes that I would like to see changed. Is how they designed it. Like, the concept of adding a folder into a notebook like this is really good. I just don't think it's exactly how I would have done it.

'''Myke:''' Are they these little paper things? Yeah. I see them. Project manager. Okay.

'''Brad:''' Yeah. So, what it does... So, the reason why it's cool is because you can take out of your binding a grouping of papers and put them in these folders. Except you have to put the papers back through the binding in the envelope. I would want loose sheets in the envelopes.

'''Myke:''' So, they're dividers, but you have to... Yeah. I see what you're saying.

'''Brad:''' You have to reinsert them into the punch.

'''Myke:''' You have to, like, take the paper, put it inside the divider, and then reattach it. I get you. Yes. It's, like, weird that you have to, like, enclose the paper inside of the divider. Yes. Rather than just putting the divider in where you want it to be. Yes. Yeah. Yes. So... But I understand why they've done this, too, though. Yes. Because if you then wanted to take all of the things related to that project and put them in another folder, it's really easy to grab them all.

'''Brad:''' Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So, yes. That's, like, a little pro and con thing. They have a lot of, like, functional inserts. Like, one of the... They have a ruler insert, you know, where you just take it out and you can do different measurements. Again, think of this as a creative platform. Their main dividers are called lifters, I guess because you're lifting the pages, you know, between them. I have a lifter in between one section that has a pin loop on it, right? So I can slide a bit in a pin there and it's large enough to hold, like, a decent-sized pin. I have another lifter or divider that has a notebook loop that goes... It's, like, the band around the outside of the notebook. Like, both of those are very functional and very useful. They also have things like whiteboard pads where you could use it in a meeting and have whiteboard markers. Oh, my God. This is incredible.

'''Myke:''' It's incredible. I don't necessarily mean this in a good way. I do think this is really cool, but it's a lot. Like, I'm on their web. I found refill storage, clipboards. Like, they sell everything.

'''Brad:''' Oh, we're getting there, Myke. One of the weirdest things that I got that is actually, I'll be dang, this works, which I did not think this was going to work, Myke. I thought this was not ridiculous or dumb, but it's just confusing. They have a product called Leather Ring Supporter, Myke. And do you know what this is? I don't know if you'd be able to find it on the page quick enough. It goes on the front and back of... God, how do I describe this? It basically goes over the rings to protect the cover from the rings marking up the cover in the front and back of the notebook. And it actually works flawlessly. I can't believe it works. It does. I was like, I would never have bought that on my own. They sent it to me. I was like, what is this? This is dumb. I don't need this.

'''Myke:''' It's to stop the indentations that the ring binding would leave on the inside of the exposed leather.

'''Brad:''' It's genius. It's a little genius piece of leather. So, yeah. Then they have all the external. So, those are all like internal products. And they have all the external stuff, which you found. Storage boxes, sleeve cases. They have desk, random desk accessories. They have a lanyard ID case. They also have a pen and pencil, neither of which I have, which I'm okay with. They're these fully knurled barrels, like from tip to tail knurling. That's unnecessary. We don't need that. I don't think that's awesome. I think it's not bad. I'm sure it's perfectly fine. But, you know, it's just a standard tubular with a clip, pen barrels and pencil barrels. So, they look fine. I'm sure they're fine. All right. So, like that's kind of all the stuff that can go in it. So, I made a list of pros and cons because that's what really people want to know.

'''Myke:''' Let's take a break before you tell us. Okay.

'''Brad:''' Yeah. Yeah. Because I feel like I don't know if we've done a good job. That was one page of notes. We definitely have not done a good job.

'''Myke:''' Yeah. I think this is definitely one of those ones where you might also want to, like, look at the links in the show notes and go through some of the products yourself because this does seem quite involved. Yeah.

'''Brad:''' Well, this next section, this will dial it in a little bit.

'''Myke:''' All right. All right. But let's take a break first. And thank Ooni Pizza Ovens for their support of this show. Ooni Pizza Ovens, they make the best pizzas in the world. They are the number one pizza oven company around because they're surprisingly small ovens that can be powered by your choice of either wood, charcoal, or gas. They're the number one pizza. They'll let you make restaurant-quality pizza in your own backyard. They're super easy to use and incredibly portable. They'll fit into any outside space and can reach temperatures of up to 900 degrees Fahrenheit, 500 degrees Celsius. This lets you cook restaurant-quality pizza in as little as 60 seconds. With that high temperature, it's what's going to set these apart from, like, a pizza you could cook in a regular oven. It just can't reach those temperatures. And those high temperatures is what makes the difference. They have a couple of really interesting models for you to check out. They have a whole range of products, but two of their coolest is the Ooni Coda 16. This is a gas-powered oven that can let you cook up to 16-inch pizzas. It has an L-shaped burner at the back, which is super innovative. It lets you get even heat distribution. And then also the Ooni Karu. This is multifueled, so you can choose wood, charcoal, or gas for that one. Their products start, the Ooni Pizza Ovens start at just $299, and you're going to get free shipping if you're in the U.S., the U.K., or the EU. They also have an app as well to help you perfect your dough recipe and give you tons of pizza-making tips. Listeners of this show can get 10% off their purchase of an Ooni Pizza Oven, which is up to $50 off an Ooni Coda 16. When you go to Ooni.com, that's O-O-N-I.com, and use the code PENADDICT0821 at checkout. They also have a great range of accessories from peels to cutters to oven tables. Brad, you are an Ooni Pizza Oven family. Can you tell our listeners why you love it?

'''Brad:''' Yeah, I love products that make me smile, and I don't mean that in a singular use case. I mean, like, literally every time I use it, you think, like, this shouldn't work. Oh, my gosh, this is amazing, and how fun is this? And that's what the Ooni gives to us. It's just, it's an event as far as it's always a fun thing to do with the family to make pizzas. Everyone gets to make their own. And then the speed and quality that it cooks with is just, you can't help but just be completely impressed and have fun with the Ooni Pizza Oven. It's a fantastic product.

'''Myke:''' Who doesn't want to make pizza at home? This is the perfect tool for the job. So go check it out right now. These things are always in high demand because of this exact reason and because they're so good. So don't miss out. Ooni Pizza Ovens are the best way to bring restaurant-quality pizza to your own backyard. Just go to Ooni.com, that's O-O-N-I.com, and use the code PENADDICT0821 to get 10% off. Thanks to Ooni Pizza Ovens for the support of this show.

'''Brad:''' All right, so back to the plotter, Myke. I want to give you my pros and cons, and hopefully this will maybe help you kind of put it all together a little bit. So on the pros list, I think the idea of what they're trying to accomplish is really good, right? The way it's designed, the amount of customization options, right? You can kind of build it for how you want it to be to best fit your needs personally. The paper is going to be a thing. Myke, this is an S-tier paper. If you're not familiar with like a Japanese ranking system, there's not a lot of things that get to the S-tier. That's what this paper is. It's going to be a problem in that it's so good, people are going to want this paper in everything.

'''Myke:''' Uh-oh.

'''Brad:''' So let me tell you a little bit about the paper or plotter in general. Plotter is not a standalone company. Their parent company is a company called Design Phil out of Japan. Design Phil is the parent company of Midori. It is the parent company of Traveler's Company. It is the parent company to several other brands. Plotter is part of this family. So this paper, they know if they're making Midori and they're making Traveler's, and those are already like well-loved and appreciated papers, like they have a good chance at making something pretty great for the plotter. I am told that this paper was made specifically for plotter, right? This isn't a reuse of a Midori paper or a reuse of a Traveler's paper. I would liken this paper to like a combination, like if the Midori MD paper and like the 68 GSM Tomoe River paper were combined, like it's that good of a quality paper, especially for fountain pens. It's very thin, right? Like a Tomoe River paper. It's a little bit off-white. It handles ink amazingly well. I put a link to, I did some ink testing yesterday on stream, and the plotter handled it amazing. All my previous ink tests have been amazing. I want to use this paper all the time. Like this could be like the one paper, right? I could just use this paper all the time. It's that good.

'''Brad:''' Another pro is just the construction quality, right? This is a premium product. We'll talk about the pricing later. And it's built that way, right? It does. There's no shortcuts. There's nothing like I question about the quality. It's just really, really well done. I think the lifter system is good because dividers are often an afterthought in products, and these are built to be part of the system, right? Like I have the pin loops. I have the loops built in them. They also have, I mean, the dividers, what I won't use them for, like they have printing on them, like alphabets and font sizes. But they have like line point measurements, Myke. Again, like goes back to the creativity. You bring out this lifter card, and you can see, oh, what is the point height of this line type of stuff. So, yeah, that's the pros. Like it's just built well. The idea is great. The paper is exceptional, like almost in a tier of its own, and just all around good. So now the cons. As great as the construction and quality is, I think the structure overall is a little bit, they're kind of caught in the middle here, right? So I have an A size, A5 size planter. This is the largest one they sell. They sell some smaller ones. It's, the leather cover is thin. Then the binding, like the rings are 11 millimeters, so they're less than a half inch tall, so it's thin. So it's a thin notebook, and it's kind of without structure, right? It's a little bit flimsy. Like if you were holding a magazine, like a thick magazine, not like a real thin magazine, but like I say like a thick magazine, you know, with like a square bound magazine. It still kind of flips over, you know, kind of, it's kind of floppy, you know, and that's fine, except you pretty much have to use it on a desk, right? You need to have it on a flat, firm surface. So they've obviously purposefully designed it this way because this is the biggest size ring you could put in there. So with this ring size, 11 millimeters, I can only put so much paper in here, in which I can only give the notebook so much structure. I would like it to feel sturdier or thicker or bigger, maybe not too much bigger, but I would like it to be almost a little more heavy duty. But they've obviously decided that this is why, that they've built this for a reason. I don't know what the reason is other than it's a very workplace-centric, like you have to have a place to use this notebook, right? If you're a fan of your hardcover, 200-page notebooks, like a Lloyd's term, and you can use that in your lap, you're not going to really be able to use this in your lap very well, right? You're not going to be able to use it moving around that well because it kind of flops around. You definitely need a desktop or a table or a hard structure to use it. So no matter what I do, I can only put so much paper in it to give it so much structure because of the ring size and the binding size, right? It can only be so big and so strong. And it's definitely a decision, right? Like they've done this purposefully. I just don't know what that purpose is. I don't know what they're trying to tell me with that. So that's my main con. I have a couple other little nitpicks. Is it real, Lava? Yes. So let's get to that right now. I have a section called neutral here because people are waiting for me to drop the hammer on the price. It's very expensive and I don't feel that it goes in the con section. I also don't feel like it goes in the pro section. I think the price is what it is and the price feels correct. That said, it is very expensive to get into if you're not committing to the system as a whole. So all the covers right now are leather. There's four or five different types of leather. The least expensive runs about $130 US. This is just the exterior. And the most expensive is around $200. These are just depending on the types of leather, the leather finishes. So I have one of the least expensive ones, but it's really nice. It's kind of like this pebbled leather. It's orange, of course. I'm a big fan of the plotter. Plotter's orange is their theme color. So you know I'm down with that. But yeah, I'm not going to say the price is a con because for what this is, that feels like the price it should be. But it's also going to cost you a lot to get into this system if you're not familiar with it or if you don't know how you're going to use it. So are you just going to use it as a refillable notebook? Well, the least you can spend is like $130 on the cover and then another like $10 on the paper inserts. Everything else is very like inexpensively priced. Like if you want to just test out the paper, you can buy a pad of paper. Like it's pre-hole, six-hole punched. But you can try the paper for like $10 or something like that. I don't even have it pulled up in front of me. It's inexpensive for like 80 sheets of paper. So yes, it's expensive. And the issue I think they're going to have is telling the story of why people should try it. So if I'm in a hardcover notebook, say Leuchtturm, that's just kind of the easiest example for me. Your standard A5 hardcover. Say I'm bullet journaling. I'm using it for, you know, my work notes. I'm using it for journaling. What is my reasoning for buying the plotter? You know, if I'm in the Hobonichi system and I have this planner layout that I like, well, what is my reasoning for going to the plotter? Right? And I don't know that they can completely answer those questions. It's very much a standalone product, which makes it a little bit higher barrier of entry. Even though you can customize it a lot, you're not going to beat, say, Hobonichi for planner layouts, right? You have your one planner layout option. Maybe they'll have more options down the line. I mean, Midori and Travelers, the company that makes them, has a billion different ones.

'''Myke:''' So maybe they make some different ones. Considering everything that they have on offer just to have like one planner layout is weird.

'''Brad:''' Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. And then if you're in the Hobonichi and you've already invested in those covers, you can get some expensive stuff in there. Well, why would you switch over to this? And if you're in the hardcover notebooks, does it provide what you need as far as a form and function? I don't know. So there are actually a lot of questions about how an individual would use it. Like, it's technically great. And I think it's fun and functional. So the last question I have, Myke, is or that I'm trying to answer for myself is, well, how will I use it or how have I been using it? And what do I want to see from them? What would I do differently? And I've been using it as a regular notebook, right? It has not usurped my William Hanna planner because of the planner layout, right? I have to have my planner layout that is not compatible with what Plotter is offering so far. So I'm not going to change that.

'''Myke:''' Here's my next question for you. Mm-hmm. Do Plotter offer a hole puncher?

'''Brad:''' They don't, but this is a standard six-ring measurement hole puncher to where you can get hole punchers for this.

'''Myke:''' So if you liked something else and you got the A5 one, but you like the whole accessory-based system and other stuff that the Plotter does, you could very easily add your own planner paper from somewhere else in.

'''Brad:''' I could, and here's why I won't. It's not big enough because I need one page per day.

'''Myke:''' Oh, it doesn't hold enough paper. Yep. That's what you mean by big enough. Okay.

'''Brad:''' Yep. I will get, so Plotter says it will hold about 80 sheets of their paper. Their paper is very thin and very, like, again, very nice. 80. Right. It's not a lot. It's not a lot. So, like, if I put in, like, 30 sheets of a different planner, like, that's almost going to be, like, the same capacity as what I have now. I just don't feel it's big enough for how I need to use it on the daily. Right? Mm-hmm. This is what I'm looking at. If I'm spending this much money on this product, it has to be a daily use product. Is this a daily use product for how I go about my day? It's not because of the planner. So, to me, and what I've explained to Plotter when I've done my interviews, is this is a secondary notebook for me. And that's okay. Like, it can be that. So, I've used it for podcast notes. I've used it for writing. What I haven't used it for is any type of journaling. That's a different notebook. That's a standard, hardbound, traditional, 192-page journal. Like, I'm not going to use a removable ring, just like I'm not going to use the disc-bound William Hanna for any type of journaling. I want those in fixed books. Uh-huh. So, to me, it has fit a secondary need, not a primary need.

'''Myke:''' And that's not what you want if you're Plotter, because you're buying, this is a lifestyle. Yes. You're buying into the Plotter lifestyle. Correct. You know, that's why they offer literally every accessory, including a bunch of accessories you never would have even considered before.

'''Brad:''' Right. You're getting in at a very high price point because you are buying the entirety of the system. You have to buy into the entirety of what the Plotter is. And I think what it is, I think, like, someone in an office, someone in a creative space, someone, you know, design, someone, you know, engineering, someone who's moving in and out of meetings, someone who's doing, like, physical work, you know, in office spaces needs to do that. But individuals, like, that need to have, say, like, a more detailed planner, a bullet journal type system, I think they're going to be looking for a different type of product. Like, this scratches a certain creative itch. I don't know that it scratches, like, a day-to-day planning itch. It's more of a creative itch that goes in here. So, that's what I've been using it for. Like, I tried to use the to-do list section. Like, there's no point in me using that because that's all in my planner. Like, I'm set. Like, and even if it could build the same system in this, I'm not sure it would actually fit in this notebook for what I need. Right. So, I think, overall, it's going to do well. It's a very niche product. It's a very high-end product. But the company behind it obviously knows what they're doing. But I don't know how many questions this is going to answer for someone. You know, when they're coming to me looking for, hey, I have this problem. What products solve it? I'm trying to figure out what this solves. And I don't know.

'''Myke:''' You're buying the beauty of this. It's really nice. But that's part of what you're paying for. You're paying for the design. You're paying for the modularity. Like, oh, man. What was the name of that product that everyone was Instagramming?

'''Brad:''' Tig.

'''Myke:''' Tig Mod. Tig Mod. Yes. This is that. Not in a bad way. But, like, this is... That was way worse. If you set this thing up just right, like, it's going to look real nice. Yes. And, like, if you want to put that on your Instagram or whatever, like, it's going to look great for you. And it's also going to be, you know, honestly, I'm very intrigued because of how highly you're praising the paper of this too, right? Like, that is very intriguing to me. But it does seem like this is, like, a very aesthetically pleasing in a, like, I'm fascinated by Japanese stationery kind of way.

'''Brad:''' Mm-hmm. Yeah. So we talk about how I buy things. And if I didn't know of the plotter and I walked into the San Francisco pen show and I saw this set up there and I saw the accessories and I saw the covers and I knew it was $200 for me to get into it, you know, to get set up. I'm 100% buying it.

'''Myke:''' Right. Because it's just speaking to you, right?

'''Brad:''' Yeah. Yeah. But if you ask me if I'm sitting here at my desk talking to you and working all day, it's not the first product I pick up.

'''Brad:''' Those two things can coexist in my world. They can't coexist in everyone else's world. Right? $200 is a commitment to someone to say, hey, I'm going to use this product full time.

'''Myke:''' Yeah. And I stand by my thinking of, like, that's not what they want from you either. Like, they really want you to be all in, Flynn. Like, do you just, that this is where your world lives inside of the plotter? Yeah.

'''Brad:''' So, this, in the hierarchy of design fills brands, this is the ultra premium traveler's notebook.

'''Brad:''' Because it's, the traveler's notebook is, again, just a leather exterior cover. You can actually make those, you know, customize those to the nth degree. And they just don't have the binding types, right? That's just the band, the bands you just insert, have the other inserts. That's why you can, you can build the traveler's notebook into more of a brick, like, feeling notebook, which I like. Right? Like, I want some structure, and I want some feel, and I want to feel, you know, like I'm a, like a, you know, like a sturdy platform that I'm writing on. And you can't do that with this setup. Purposefully.

'''Myke:''' How well do you think this is going to work in the international market? Is it just U.S.?

'''Brad:''' No, obviously not. Like, it's, you can get them from Japan now. Are they going to go outside of Japan and the U.S.? I don't know. It's a niche product because of the price point and because of the structure of the questions it asks for you to start with the system. Right? Right? It's never going to be like the Midori MD notebook, which is just a standard notebook, a high quality standard notebook that is, has freedom. Right? This notebook has rules.

'''Brad:''' Right? So, you're always going to be, not have, as, the more rules you have, the less widespread the product is going to be. But that's not what, that's also not what they're selling here. They're selling a premium good.

'''Myke:''' Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

'''Brad:''' Let's make no bones about it. This is a premium stationary product. And I see no reason for it. I think it's good that it exists. Like, it's in a good space, I think. Right? I think it's in a good space for price point and quality. It feels great. I would like to see, if I'm building this aside from the structure, I want to see some non-leather covers. I don't know that they're going to do that. What do you want?

'''Myke:''' Do you want other soft or do you want hard cover?

'''Brad:''' I want people who don't use leather to have an option, is what I want, before anything else. Because I think it's a cool system. And, you know, but that's how a lot of these are built. William Hanna doesn't have non-leather covers. You know, I don't expect them to do it because Travelers doesn't have non-leather covers. They own another company called Knox, which is actually a leather goods company. Like, they seem to be all in on the leather as premium product type of build.

'''Myke:''' But even then, for people that do, leather with structure is also another thing. And it seems like these are just like, it's just a piece of leather. Like, it's protecting the paper from the elements as such. It's not actually providing you have any kind of surface.

'''Brad:''' Right, right. Where something like the William Hanna is like a stitched, lined leather, like a double layer. You know, there's some sturdiness to it. You know, Rotor Faden has leather exteriors. And they also have like the bulky felt type interiors. Like the cloth and the fabrics that have some structure into them, too.

'''Myke:''' I think Rotor Faden, I don't know if they also do, but I know mine was, it wasn't real leather. Gotcha.

'''Brad:''' Yeah, so they have Rotor Faden eyes options. So, I don't expect Plotter to do that based on the other companies that they already own and what they make for. Like, if you look at the design fill catalog, there is no non-leather options. I would just like to see that. But then maybe that takes away from the presentation of the Instagrammable nature of what they're trying to sell here. So, yeah, it's a complex product, Myke.

'''Brad:''' Yeah. Lots of pros, lots of pros, lots of cons.

'''Myke:''' I mean, I want to see it, too. I mean, like I would like to see it in action.

'''Brad:''' You would enjoy it. I think a lot of people are going to enjoy it.