Editing The Pen Addict 509/transcript (section)

== Anti-Grind Pens ==


'''Brad:''' Um, we're going to not talk about that one first. We're going to talk about the anti. Oh, I see. We're going to talk about the complete opposite of my fountain pen. Yeah, we're bookending. So, lots of allusions to what's coming up later in this show, but I want to start off with this Estabrook needlepoint nib. So, what we're going to do today is we're going to dig a little bit deeper in some of the stuff that I picked up at the Atlanta Pen Show, and that we talked about on a surface level last week while I was on vacation. And now that I've had more time to spend with some of the products, specifically nibs, this show is going to be a very nib-focused show. So, I picked up the Estabrook needlepoint nib from my friends at Kenro Industry. But they are now available, I think, from several vendors. When you go to buy an Estabrook, the way they do their specialty nibs, like the journaler nib or this needlepoint nib, when you go to a retailer and say you want to buy an Estabrook fountain pen or the Estee, specifically, you can have your nib size choice, you know, extra fine, fine, medium, whatever, and then you can have the add-on option for the specialty nibs, you know, the journaler, which was the first one that Gina Salarino did, and then Joshua Lacks has done one, and now Kirk Spear has done one, which is the needlepoint. Those are add-ons, right? They're more expensive add-ons because obvious reasons, right? These nibs have been modified to give you something a little bit more special, and you get charged for it. So we'll have a link in the show notes to the Estabrook pens page to read about it if you're interested in this type of thing. But I think that's kind of the kicker with these needlepoint nibs, Myke. Not everyone's going to be interested in this, and that's okay. As far as a using, a use case perspective, right? Like you would never in a million years, I wouldn't even hand you this pen to test because you would just go, yeah, no, it's not for me, and hand it right back, like within a sentence, right? It is really needly and sharp. I don't have a way to measure the thickness of the lines that small. Like I don't have a micrometer or anything like that, but we're talking like 0.2 millimeter lines, maybe even less, right? It's very, very fine, which is what I enjoy writing with. Like I can write page after page with this small, tiny, firm handwriting. So this is on a steel Yovo nib, and it's just great. Like it's exactly what I anticipated it would be because I have used other steel Yovo nibs before, and this one's done on a fine nib, so like the base nib is a fine nib, and it's just ground down Kirk from Pen Realm, who partnered with Estabrook to make this nib. Just grinds it down, and it's like a 0.2-ish millimeter line. It's very fine. Like compared to other needlepoint steel nibs that I have, it's right there with them, which is good. So I talked to Kirk about it at the Atlanta Pen Show because I sat with him to get a Lamy Safari extra fine nib ground into a needlepoint as well so I could use it in my different safari. So I purposefully got Kirk to do it so I could sit and talk to him about, hey, what's the difference between what you're doing for me right now with this Lamy Safari versus what you did for Estabrook with the needlepoint nib? And it was a fun conversation. And he was able to give me a couple of different sample pens for his idea. So when you're someone like Kirk and you're making a nib that is ground and specific, but you're not sitting directly with your customer, you tend to tone it down just a little bit, right? So he has to meet the expectations of a needlepoint fan like myself while also making it very useful for someone who might just be dabbling and aren't going to worry about scraping through the page or something like that if they don't necessarily know how to write with it. So it's like a balance. So his Estabrook needlepoint may not be quite as needly as my Lamy Safari, for example. Like he told me as I was doing this, like we kept breaking down the Lamy Safari nib further and further and further as I got to sit there with him. And I was like, yeah, let's take it down further. And he's like, okay, so this will be end up being deeper going into the quantum realm. There's no nib left, Brad. There's no nib. It is now a stub nib because we have to back out.

'''Brad:''' So, yeah, like we can sit and have that conversation. And that's one of the benefits of going to a pen show, right? He can grind down the nib, hand it to me. I can test it. I say, this is good. Give me more, you know, more in this case, more needles.

'''Brad:''' And we can continue this back and forth till I'm done. And he'll do whatever I want. He was like, oh, so you like it like this. Show me how you write. Try this pen. Tell me how you like this feels. And there you go. And then I buy the needlepoint from Estabrook, the pre-ground one, and ask him to like, hey, tell me how that came about. And he's like, yeah, it's really good. It's very needlepoint, but it's not going to be as, you know, sharp or as fine of a line as what I just did for you on the Safari. Except with the needlepoint, Myke, there's only so much variation you can get, right? Like I'm not going to go, I'm not going to go, oh, Myke, you'll enjoy this needlepoint, but not that one, right? They're in the same category. They're in the same realm. They both meet the expectation of what I want. It makes sense.

'''Myke:''' When you're going to such an extreme, you will eventually hit a logical limit that you can't find a lot of variation in grind to grind would be my expectation. Right.

'''Brad:''' Right. So I can sit here and put the two pins side to side, the Estabrook needlepoint nib and the Lamy Safari nib that Kirk Spear did both of. And if I don't have them inked up, like identically, like I have two different inks in them right now. So that changes how the line looks on the page. They're awfully close. Like maybe I could say the Lamy Safari is fractionally different, but it's also not an even comparison because I'm not using the same ink. Right. So, but they're that close. They're that close. So the other part of this conversation that I wanted to have is the price. You can't avoid the fact that the needlepoint is a $90 add-on for an Estabrook pen. I think, and I tried to look it up and I didn't see it right offhand, like the journal or nib when it came out, it was around a $50 to $60 add-on, I'm thinking, which is fine as well. And I'm not saying $90 is too much. I'm not saying that at all. But you have to understand the different hands.

'''Myke:''' You could argue maybe it's a lot for the pen that's going in.

'''Myke:''' How much is an Estabrook?

'''Brad:''' Maybe $165 to two low twos. But you're also talking to a guy who just spent $50 on a needlepoint nib.

'''Myke:''' Yeah, but I'm a safari. Right. And I've also spent obscene amounts of money on stacked nibs. I'm not saying that this is a, I'm just saying like maybe for the, if this was your first needlepoint, I would consider that as a consideration. Right. Of like, is this the right move for you? Because I feel like this kind of work or this kind of money spent on a nib typically I think is paired best with a pen you're really in love with, which could be that Estabrook. But if you were buying it new with this nib, there's an interesting balance there, I think.

'''Brad:''' Correct. Correct. I agree with like your big picture sentiment. The interesting thing so far is I haven't heard any complaints about the price and I'm not saying it's too much. I'm saying this so people understand the different business aspects we're talking about here. Right. So I sat down, I brought Kirk a nib. I sat down in front of him, said, hey, put a needlepoint on it and it cost me $50. Or I can buy a pre-ground nib for $90. Well, how did that $90 nib come about? Well, it's going through a distributor who has to mark them up to sell to retail, who has to also pay Kirk for his work. And a needlepoint grind is not cheap on its own. Right. I paid $50 for the privilege of that.

'''Myke:''' So I don't think it's out of line. Also, I think you've got to price it at a point, which would actually be discouraging to some people because there's a lot of manual work going into this. Like if you made like a, you know, it's like, oh, we'll make it up in volume kind of deal. That's a great idea. But then Kirk has to produce it in volume and he's just one person, you know? Right.

'''Brad:''' Right. And I remember talking to Myke Masayama years ago about needlepoint grinds that he had to start charging more because they're actually more work to execute them well. I expect more danger.

'''Myke:''' And I expect of most of the nib grinds you can do, most likely for a failure, right?

'''Brad:''' Right. Right. So to your point, I think is correct in that $90 individually to customize an existing pen you already have is a pretty good decision. You know, buying like another pen and then tacking it on there to like something you already have. That's a much bigger ask. You're turning a $200 pen into a $300 pen. And maybe that's worth it to you. Like not everyone has like pen show access, right? Or wants to take the time to send pens cross country or around the world in some cases to deal with all of that. So yeah, like that's what it costs, right? Like it's not an easy thing to do. And it goes through a lot of hands, you know, between distributor and retail and maker, right? There's a lot of extra levels of cost in there. So like that $90 is seems about right. And like you can't even ask, is it worth it? Right. Because like to me it is, but it's almost an irrelevant question, right? It's an expensive premium, but I really enjoy it.

'''Myke:''' I think as a buyer as well, there is some benefit. Again, while I agree, more expensive than a pen show. And this is not a comment on anybody, Kirk or anyone. But like if you buy this through a company for $90, if you're unhappy with it, you can probably return it.

'''Myke:''' It's not so easy to do that with a nib grind. Right. Like that is much more of a like subjective conversation. Right. Because what are you returning? Right. Like if you get something ground and you're not happy with it after a week, there isn't really much that can be done about it. You know what I mean? Like it's very complicated. It's like, well, yeah, maybe the nibmeister will say like, sure, just send it to me and I'll fix it for you. But what if there isn't anything to fix? Like you just don't like it anymore. Right. You know what I mean? And then it's like you can't return it because it wasn't their nib in the first place. But if you buy one of these nibs through a larger company who's provided distribution for Estabrook, they probably have a period of time in which you could return it. Right.

'''Brad:''' Right. Right. And which is priced into like. Exactly. That's how pricing works. Yeah. All the things get accounted for. So, yes, that's part of the part of the equation.

'''Myke:''' But I think that's part of the benefit, right? This is, you know, what I will say is like, you know, you got to make sure that you think it's right for you in the first place of the set. Like if you've just bought your first Estabrook and you don't really love it yet, which I mean, I have my own Estabrooks and I do love them. But like if you're not sure it's right for you, I don't know if I would suggest doing a $90 immediate upgrade. But if you love your pen, you want to try this out, like this is actually a really good path to do that. Like if you're like, what is this fuss about needle points? Like this is a this is a available option. Right. Otherwise, with less complication and maybe less less potential risk attached to it.

'''Brad:''' Yep. And my decision to buy it. Well, number one, I like needle points. Number two, I review things and I like to talk about new things that created. But number three, I was only going to buy it if I knew what pen it was going to go in. And and I, you know, planned on it going into my Montana Sapphire. Like I have a fancy Estabrook. That's already a three hundred dollar Estabrook that I would like to upgrade with this nib. Like that's the the the calculation I made. I just happened to end up with another Estabrook that it went into that's equally as special, which we might talk about later in this episode.

'''Myke:''' All right. Should we take a break and get to that?

'''Brad:''' Coffee break, buddy.